hello, my name is brittney and today i just bought 2 baby turtles from a flea market, i wanted to rescue them b/c they were being maulled and people were poking at them and things like that, they are about 1 to maybe 2 inces long head to tail. im trying to read up on info about these turtles but i dont know what to do, id never think id need this much stuff to care for them, im only 16 and the pet store owner wont help me b/c they are so little, i didnt know it was illegal to sell baby turtles under 4 inchs, i have no idea what kind they are or what they eat, thankfully i bought these small pellets but they wont eat, i dont even know if they are aquatic or not, they do have very shallow water around them, do you have any idea how i can find out what kind and how to take care of them so they dont die? can i even hold them? id appericate the help any info is useful ive been reading alot about them but alot of the info is condradicting itself, i hope you can help

-britt

i just registered this is my name if you need it, i dont know if you can contact me or not, my email address is avampirenamednei@hotmail.com

-britt

Brittney, have you read my page at http://www.fishpondinfo.com/hatchling.htm as it should answer a lot of your questions. Can you send a photo to me (via my site) or post one here? Then, I may be able to tell you what kind of turtle it is.

those are definitely red ear sliders. thats the only kind ive heard of ever being in flea markets, boardwalks, chinatowns, anything like that. they are water turtles and it is best to not handle them except when moving them when cleaning the tank or something like that. they only need enough land to get out and dry on. the rest of the tank should be water. start them in whatever is the biggest tank you can afford and hace the space for, this should be at least ten gallons. for now you can keep the water shallow just to see how well they swim, if they dont seem to struggle you can raise it. a variety of pellets is best to ensure you provide them with enough nutrients. i would use hagen nutrifin max turtle gammarus pellets, they are a complete diet and are small enough for them to eat. uv lighting is vital as is a heat lamp over their dry basking area. a high quality filter is a necessity. i would use whisper, they have varying models for different size tanks and even have models that go in the tank rather than hang on it. the pet shop should help, its not illegal for them to sell you supplies for turtles you already have. if they dont want to help we will and i am happy to give as much advice as you want. remember that whisper filters are labeled at about double their capacity, a whisper 20 can handle up to 10 gallons by itself(no other filters). so if you get a ten gallon tank get at least a whisper 20, but a 30 is even better. these turtles can potentially be up to a foot carapace length. carapace is the top of the shell. that means that a single full grown adult would need a 75 gallon tank minimum. they dont all get that big but you should know their potential size. if you have any other specific questions just post them.

is it unhealthy for me to hold and pet them? they dont seem to mind?

it depends on why tehy dont seem to mind. if it is that they are too scared to do anything thats bad for them, if they are just too unhealthy to do anything that is bad, but it looks from the pics they are relatively active. they can carry many diseases and that is why they were made illegal. you need to wash your hands with a strong disinfectant after every handling, that includes before you even brush your habd to your face for an itch or something. you just dont want to catch anything. also wash your hands before you handle them, that will prevent you from giving them anything you may have picked up outside or from other pets or anything like that. the actual physical handling isnt the problem if you are gentle, its the cross contamination to the both of you that is the problem. wipe-out 3 is a good no water disinfectant, strong alcohol smell, but still really good and designed specifically for washing hands before and after handling reptiles. i wouldnt handle them too much for now or anytime you put them in a new enclosure, its always a good idea to let them settle in a few days before messing with them.

I agree with what he said basically. They are baby red-eared sliders. You don't want to handle them much and wash your hands before and after. The link I gave you covers the basic care of baby aquatic turtles. Keep an eye out for any of these common problems: swollen, shut, or oozy eyes, wheezing, or bubbles/stuff from the nose. Upper respiratory infections are common especially with turtles that didn't get good care before you got them. I've read that you can have a vet check the feces of the turtles to see if they have salmonella which is the most common bacteria that you could get from them. To catch it, you would have to accidently get feces into your mouth or membranes like rubbing your eye with leftover turtle waste. Sounds yucky but possible. That's the main reason turtles under 4" were outlawed from kids getting sick due to lack of knowledge and/or supervision. Healthy turtles do NOT carry salmonella, just sick ones. They can be cured of it. It would be helpful if you could find a vet that has turtle experience and also won't chastise you for having babies.

thanks for the information, i am now looking for a vet, but i cant get my turtles to eat anything, they havnt eaten anything since saterday...i am really worried i dont want them to die on me, i hope they are ok...

I hope they start to eat. Keep them warm and try some live foods like live blackworms if you can find them. If they won't eat those and are warm, then I would worry.

oh ok, i plan on picking those up tomorrow witha few more things they need, i put a heating pad on low under the tank to keep them warm and i put a rock in there...can i put like fish pebbles or sand or something in there so it isnt completely water or what should i do, im trying my hardest to learn as much as i can about turtles, i didnt know they would be hard to care for, they were a sper of the moment decision to buy, its just they were being maulled by people and i couldnt let that happen, so what exactly should i deffenitialy buy to make sure they are cared for well other then food, ill reread your info page just in case i missed something but thanks again for the help your wonderful.

-britt

biggest tank you can deal with(financially and spacewise) appropriately sized filter, i would use a whisper about double the gallong of the tank. so if you have a 20 gallon tank get a whisper 40. there are internal whispers that would be good since you will probably need to keep the water low for a while. a water heater may be necessary if the water temp is lower than the upper 70's. visi-therm has come out with a shatterproof heater made of thermal plastic, it is called the stealth and runs $30-35 at the pet shop i work at but you may be able to find it cheaper. a basking area is required and a turtle dock will probably be the best especially for turtles this size, the 'small' turtle dock will be fine for now. a full spectrum fluorescent light over the whole tank, and a heat lamp pointed directly at the basking dock is needed. those are the essentials. an undertank heater isnt really the best for water turtles.

You can add aquarium gravel if you want (new and rinsed or old and sterilized) but it will make cleaning the tank more difficult and also foods may fall out of the turtles' reach. An undertank heater won't work that well. Your turtles are small enough that they probably can't break a regular aquarium heater. When they're larger, you might need a shatterproof heater or have to build a shelter/protection around the heater. I used a Duetto filter in the water for Snappy as the water was so shallow.

i keep gravel in my turtle tanks. most like to forage through it as they would in the wild. i would definitely recommend a python brand gravel vacuum that hooks up to your sink. it is kind of expensive but is a huge lifesaver. the sink should be sterilized with bleach or the like after draining a turtle tank. it will really help keep the gravel clean. if you need more than 25' of hose its actually cheaper to by the replacement parts (excluding the hose) from petsmart and then go to lowes and get whatever length tubing you want. i think i got 32' and it would have been about even if i didnt already have most of the parts.

i picked up 2 differnt reptial lightbulbs for day and night and some plant thing they can climb in and bloodworms and i think plankton...some little shripy thing...they seem to like the 2nd one...

Hey Brit !!
I hope this help comes in time for your turtles... I have had a baby turtle since the start of September altho I had one for many years ( from tiny to quite large ) when I was younger... It doesn't take a lot to care for your turtles, I have mine in a fish tank, the tank has only about 2 inches of water in it, gravel on the bottom & some rocks for her to climb out on. Every day or atleast every 2nd day I feed her mosquito larvae ( which you can find in animals water troughs or in stagnant water pretty much anywhere - can catch easily with a tea strainer or a fish net from the pet store ) or live bloodworms ( which I net in anaimal troughs or stagnant water. ) If you are not able to find these things my turtle who is named Penny because she is the size of a penny, she will eat small earth worms or basically anything small that lives in water like tiny fish, small tapoles or water bugs or water snails... Turtles really prefer to eat live foods, as they get bigger they will progress onto bigger foods... You just put the food into the tank with them, they eat in the water - which is really quite interesting to watch - they kind of pounce on it like a snake... It might take them a few days to start eating & at first they might not eat much but they soon develope a verocious appetite... You can get pellets from your pet shop but trust me they are a last alternative, it's pretty hard to get them to accept something that is not moving... You don't need a light for their tank & you don't need a filter... As long as they have somewhere in their tank where they can climb out & rest ( a rock ) & also you have to get them out & in the sunlight for around 20 minutes per day because they need the sunlight to help with shell development... If you have any questions don't hesitate to email me at jerdipski@hotmail.com
Good luck - they really are a beautiful & interesting animal !.

yes they do need a filter. dirty water is like a factory for bacteria and other microbes to grow, rapidly reproduce, and flourish, not good for your turtle's or your health. yes they do need a full spectrum light. UVB light allows them to make their own vitamin D3 which is required for the metabolism of calcium. wihout both calcium and vitamin D3 they will get softshell and that can kill them. 20 minutes a day of sunlight is far from sufficient for lighting, especially in times of the year when there isnt much sunlight (like this winter we are in the middle of). they should have the option to bask whenever they want to throughout the day. it is usually far from hard to get them to eat pellets (although yes there are some that will refuse pellets, at least at first and obviously those are the exception) and in my experience and opinion is much better for them than live food. i know it is more natural for them to eat live, but it can very easily introduce parasites and diseases, and im talking about stuff you would buy from a pet store. wild caught things from stagnant bodies of water are the last things they should be fed and that is what i would feed if i was trying to introduce all kinds of bacteria and parasites and diseases and get my turtles sick. if you are going to feed live, which i dont and dont recommend and am having great success by the way, definitely do not get it from outside or anything wild, buy it from the store. when feeding live you should also keep it for at least a week before you feed it to them so you can monitor the feeders for disease or any signs of ill health, as well as feed them well since most stores dont feed them much, if at all. there should be more than 2" of water, they are WATER turtles and enjoy much more depth with shallow resting areas. i have had many hatchlings in a foot of water without any problems. they shouldnt have any problems unless they are already sick or weak from other causes. even if you havent had any problems yet doesnt mean you wont, and it doesnt mean there arent better and safer ways out there.

Well that is all fine & good if you have plenty of money & no time to take them outside for a bit of sun ( which is a nessessity for shell development ) & do not clean your tank regularly... Bear in mind my turtle is an Australian Long Necked turtle... And as my reply was a quick one due to it being Christmas & me being a busy Mum I didn't have time to say everything I normally would have... Turtles are from the wild - they do not have heaters, they do not have filters - sure some live in streams where they have a lot of this stuff naturally ( altho I've only encountered a small minority in my 30 years ), most of them live in swamps & dams, some of them little more then mud holes... My turtle has different areas in her tank, some easy to climb on rocks for her to get out whenever she likes, some shallower parts & deeper parts... During the day I keep the blinds up & she has sunlight altho I take her out everyday to get some direct sunlight for around 20 minutes... At night time she likes to sleep, which she mostly does in the deeper parts of her tank... In the morning I put a variety of mosquito larvae, blood worms ( which are high in protein & very good source of nutrition for her ) she also has tiny fish, water bugs & other little water species in with her which are in there all the time so if she's hungry she can eat whenever she likes... The turtle that I had when I was a child I had for many many years, it was tiny, the same size as Penny & the same sort of turtle... I did everything much the same except for her tank was outside on a table on the verandah ( my Mum wouldn't allow my extensive collection of yabbies, tadpoles, frogs, mexican walking fish ( axolotls ) which must have driven her crazy in the house - LOL not to mention the coloured mice, rats & chickens I kept... ) I also had another turtle the exact same kind but much much bigger, one year we went on holidays to the coast & everyone else was away & we were going for 2 weeks so they came with us...
The thing is if you're not going to have time to clean your tank regularly & properly then a filter is probably a good idea altho it is not nessessary for their survival ( ie: most fish need them to breathe or they'd die - turtles come to the surface for air... ) You've gotta go easy on things like bleach & chemicals which can easily kill your pet ( my Mum had bleach on her hand & picked up a peg that had fallen into the tadpole tank when she was doing the washing & wiped the whole lot out... ) When I clean my tank I take them outside ( or if it's raining I do it in the laundry ) & scrub the entire thing with steel wool & only water...
I get my supply of food for Penny from my dad's chicken trough & from my boyfriend's parents sheep troughs ( thats the moquito larvae & the bloodworms ) - anything else comes from a running clear creek ( thats the fish, tadpoles etc... )
My Mother & Sisters were given 2 of the same turtles the same size as Penny & they " tried " feeding them pellets which they bought from the pet store - every time I went over & visited I saw them getting scrawnier & scrawnier until they eventually died altho many times I offered to bring food around - they just thought they knew what they were doing & didn't want any help...
So Mr Reptile Man :P , there are different ways care for turtles where they can still be happy & healthy without putting a dent in your hip pocket... I appreciate what you have to say & no doubt you have a lot of experience... If you plan on having your turtle it's entire life ( which in my case is atleast 50 years ) & not releasing it to the wild then it is fine to pick them up when you need to ( I keep touching to a bare minimum, only when I need to as I plan on releasing back to the wild when she is a little older )
I am in a nationwide group over here called WIRES ( Wildlife Information & Rescue Service - http://www.wires.org.au/ ) where people bring injured & sick native animals ( & sometimes not LOL ) to us to be treated & when ready returned to the wild... People ring us 24 hours a day & we come pick them up - it's totally volunteer work & we do bird courses, reptile courses & all sorts of courses so we do know what we're doing... We keep the heaters for the animals that really need them, like baby kangaroos & koala's who's mothers have died & in order to survive they need to be kept warm...

BTW did you realise that turtles HIBERNATE in the winter ???
Or did you think they hide under a rock with a heater on ( mmm nice & warm lets do something totally unnatural & not hibernate this year... )
How long did you say you'd had a turtle for ???
Oh & BTW if you read up on turtles you'd realise they spend most of their day in water foraging for food & around 20 minutes basking which is why 20 minutes is the minimum amount they should spend in direct sunlight... Next thing you'll be telling us we gotta put some sunscreen on them...
LOL...

rehab is different. they obviously shouldnt be put onto a pellet diet. but in general for captive PET turtles i have found a pellet diet to be much better and healthier for them. obviously if they dont eat it it isnt even a diet and it is better to eat wild assorted things than nothing at all. i still feel filters are a must in order to keep cleanliness up and the likelihood of infection and disease down. it may work for you and your needs are a little different since you are doing rehab, but the ways i go by and recommend are what i have found to be the best. as far as sunlight being essential, there are light bulbs that simulate sunlight for the purposes of a turtle's health. that requires even less hands-on interaction with them (which i also avoid) and therefore less strss on them, although i understand that once they get used to being moved it isnt that stressful for them. i still find their enclosure to be the best and safest place for them, i dont take them out unless i absolutely have to. in the end i think that the methods i use are safer and better for the turtles, your success is your success, but i think the ways i have developed are better. telling people that filters and full spectrum lighting are not needed are what leads to people keeping them in horrible conditions and very sick turtles, if they live. wild caught bugs and other foods from troughs and streams are a very good way to introduce A LOT of microbes and other VERY harmful things and should be avoided at all costs. i am surprised your turtles are doing as well as you say and i hope the best for them for their sake.

I don't agree with all this synthetic sunlight, artificial heating & turtle pellets & I'm a vet I should know, plus worked in pet shop for 17 years before that !.
I was also wondering why turtles don't always die in the wild when exposed to microbes & bacteria - although it a very good idea to keep your tanks clean - if you're too lazy then get a filter !.
Peace you guys & merry christmas !.

yes some turtles do hibernate in the winter. although they dont need to in captivity for their health, just to trigger breeding if you want them to. so if 20 minutes is the minimum you are only doing the minimum for them? they actually spend a few hours a day basking in natural sunlight, that i have observed in wild and captive individuals that are kept outdoors. i have found that a lot of people with tons of experience are frequently very bad at taking care of their animals. this is not an attack at you since i dont know exactly how long you have had turtles, this is a general statement. many people have what they think is tons of experience and therefore whatever they think must be right, they freqently are stuck in the ways that were common when they started, like heat rocks for reptiles, or an undergravel filter being the only filter on an aquarium. of course many people with tons of experience are great at what they do, but many may have tons of experience but have simply been keeping their animals in the wrong manner for a long time, so years of experience doesnt always mean one person is any better at it than another. i have had turtles for about 8 years and have had a lot. i know that that may not be much experience compared to some people, but i have learned A LOT in that time. some for short periods bacause i quickly resold them or gave them to people. i have made mistakes and learned well from them. i have done a lot of reading and research on them and am very good with them if i may say so myself, which i dont like to.

Hey Reptile Guy ;)
If she were going to be my full time captive ( I don't like that word but anyways... )pet I would definantly still only feed her live foods - maybe you have better pellets over there then we do here as it's not really legal to have turtles here - only in one state & their shells have to be over 10cms - not sure what that is in inches... I think an inch is 2.5 cms so say about 4 inches... )
Over here esp after rain you often see turtles cruising along on the roads - I usually stop & put them in the nearest water I can find, do you get that over there ?. 2 years ago we came across one on a road that had an injured back leg, we looked after him for a few months & then let him go...
How long do American turtles live, what sorts are there & do they stink bomb you when they are picked up ?. My little one doesn't but the ones on the roads just about always do...

please stop quoting entore posts, we can all see them perfectly well without going through all that text just to get to the new part of a post. many turtles die in the wild from all sorts of things, from microbes to poor nutrition to being outcompeted or becoming prey. that is one reason i dont always try to copy nature, nature is cruel and weeds out all but the absolute best. again lots of experience doesnt necessarily mean anone is that great. and some vets agree 100% with artificial lighting, turtle pellets, and artificial heating. so does that mean they are all wrong because you should know because you are a vet?

Howdy... Again... LOL...
This is almost like MSN...
20 minutes is the minimum I have her in the sun, I usually have her out while I'm seperating bloodworms from the gunky crap - which takes me ages as I have 9 other fish to feed as well... The funny thing is, I'll put her a few meters away from me in all different places & she always comes over to me & hides under my foot... I always stay outside with her incase of birds or my cat getting her... If you have msn can chat on there, mines jerdipski@hotmail.com

many reptiles expel either poop or other putrid smelling substances when bothered, it is just a defense mechanism. we may have better pellets so that would be a huge factor and that is a very good point. 2.5 cm is 1 inch, so yes 10cm would be 4in. i dont get any turtles on the roads after rains around me, but i am in a more developed area so that probably has a lot to do with it, its horrible how bad we impede on nature. we have tons of types over here and max age depends on the species. depending on who you talk to or which book you are looking in most american pond-type sliders and cooters live from 10-25 years or more. i have had better success with growth and general health with pellets. i have just recently gone onto pellet only diets (within the past year) so there may be things down the road i have yet to come to, but so far it has worked VERY well for me (or more so my turtles).

i dont use instant messaging due to safety risks (viruses and the like) and good debates like this are good for everyone to read and learn form, or join in on.

BTW, I think I've finally worked out how to not quote all the quotes
( the perils of being blonde in my brain... )

you should register with the forum. it makes it easier for us to know who we are talking to.

Yer I might... Or I could just put my name on it... Hee hee...
I was playing yahoo pool but much more interesting chatting esp about your pets... What pets do you have ? Do you have photo's of them ?
I'll take some with the digital camera & see if I can work out how to post them...
BTW, what happened to Britt & her turtles ?

Ok I'm all registered...

her post was from a while ago so she probably got the info she needed, moved on, and will never come back, except maybe for future problems. i have pics of my current and former animals all over this site. click on my name and you should go to my profile, at the top there should be a link that says "find all topics by this member" and that should take you to a list of all the threads i have started. not all have pics of my animals on them, but there arent too many and you should be able to see some pics of my animals through there.

ATM I have a pair of Siamese Fighting fish ( red male - weird looking coloured female altho she was the healthiest looking I could find ) I bought them last Thurday & they've done the bubble nest thing & just waiting for fry to hatch... I'm making some infusoria so it's all ready for them to eat once they're ready. I'm making it from grass which is in a jar of tank water out in the sun, altho I've read you can make it from boiled potato, do you know any other ways ?
I have a pair of Albino Peach Paradise fish which I also got last Thursday which have also done the bubble nest thing just waiting to see what happens there...
I have another pair of Peach Paradise fish altho I think they are both female, they were young when I bought a few months ago so was a little hard to sex them... They've been acting like they are mating but never going to bubble nest which I think is just them getting excited when I feed them...
I have Penny as you know... My Son & his friend found her in a dried up creek & she had very thin arms & legs which is why we decided to bring her in... She doesn't seem to have grown much in shell size ( but I guess I'm always looking at her so don't seem to notice ) altho she's put on weight in her limbs & she's much more active, swims very fast now etc... I'm not really sure how long I'm going to keep her with us, I'd like to release her when she's a bit bigger & when I find somewhere where her chances of survival are better, trouble is I get very attached to my turtles & I hate the thought of them being injured or killed, perhaps because these ones have a very long lifespan & it'd be wonderful if I could be certain she'd get to live it out... Guess I'll just have to cross that bridge when I come to it... Altho if I do keep her on I'm going to buy one of those kind of cascading ponds ( you know the ones that have a fountain & a filter & like 3 different levels - a small one, a bigger one & a really big one ) & have it set up outside...
And I have a 16 year old cat named Monkey...
They're my own personal pets...
I'm not really a dog person altho I have a soft spot for some... Like one of my Brother's aquaintences had a whippet ( I don't know if you have them over there but they are like a smaller version of a Grey Hound ) & he was mistreating him, not feeding him & another dog had taken a huge chunk off of it's hind quater & it clearly needed stitching which he never bothered with so it came under my wing for a while & there was another dog who wasn't a good working dog which the owners were going to shoot so it came under my wing for a year as well, the funny thing with that one was he ended up going to live with the previous owners parents as they wanted a dog for company...
I guess you could just say I love animals, well pretty much except for my Sister In Law's 600 dollar Alaskan Malamute... We call it The 600 dollar dog & it knows it, LOL... I tend to like the ones that have been rejected, my Dad has taken a rather large female dog in that just wandered onto his property ( we have no idea what it is & no idea who it belongs to) & it is one of the best natured dogs I've seen... My Brother used to work at the dump which a lot of dogs & cats get dumped there & he befriended & took home a tiny Kelpie which was a wonderful dog - unfortunatly was bitten by a snake last year & that was very sad for all of us... The 600 Dollar dog ended up being given away as she was a pain in the butt, she killed all of the neighbours chooks, tried to kill sheep, got into everything & grew bigger than her owner ( who needed to spend more time with her because she was running rings around her... )
I've been raving on... LOL...

were you able to find my posts and pics like i described?

Reading the two of you arguing back and forth, I thought I'd add my two cents. First, there's more than one way to do things; no one of you is 100% right or wrong. First, there's some confusion because one of you is in Australia and one in the USA (like me). The climate is different; the seasons are different; the wildlife is different; even some vocabulary is different. If I recall from an e-mail from someone else from Australia, a chook is a chicken, right?

Here in Maryland, USA, after it rains, if it's warm, it does bring out the box turtles. The poor babies get squished or harmed by cars and lawn mowers or taken by people more times than I can count. Rehab is big for them. Where I live, I have never seen a wild aquatic turtle except a female snapping turtle once. US turtles have life spans ranging from just about 20 years for smaller aquatic turtles to over 100 years for box turtles.

Turtles need full spectrum lighting, either natural sunlight or artificial fluorescent lighting. Artificial lights are more reliable since it can be a cloudy day. If kept long-term, I think turtles should have lighting on timers. If kept outdoors or for rehabilitation purposes, then natural sunlight for a few hours or more per day may suffice. Some species of turtle do not bask as much as others such as the snake-necked and side-necked turtles of Australia and the snapping turtles and soft-shelled turtles of the USA. That doesn't mean they don't need full-spectrum lighting but perhaps not as much as those species that are heavy baskers such as US painted turtles and sliders.

It's a fact that commercial turtle pellets are not natural. I offer some to the few turtles I've had because they're convenient and contain vitamins and minerals. Live animals and plants are the natural foods of turtles; some eating more plant and some more animal matter. Nature is dangerous; it is risky; there is no doubt. Does that mean that every batch of stagnant water contains lethal pathogens; of course, not! Does it mean that it's 100% safe; of course not. There's risk in feeding live foods but in most cases, it's minimal assuming the turtle is healthy. All animals should be exposed to some "nasties;" it's how we build up our immune systems.

Water without movement and with turtle waste stagnates pretty quickly. I tend to prefer to use a filter or at least provide a little bit of water movement. It also helps turtles build swimming muscles. I wouldn't use it if the turtle were severly injured though. Turtles can be kept in non-filtered water but it should be changed daily. Steel wool will damage glass and plastics so I assume your "tank" is some other material. I change my 2-month-old painted turtle's water three times a week; he has a Duetto filter. He's the only turtle I have right now (not on my site; it's illegal here as well to possess a turtle under 4").

Most of Australia stays warm over their winter (opposite to the US seasons so it's early summer there right now). There are some cooler areas where turtles will go into semi-hibernation but they don't have snow and ice. Do they get any at all? I'm not sure but I don't think so.

Anyway, the discussions help others understand what the options are and how they may work for one situation and not another. Instead of criticizing each others ways, let's share what has worked for us and not but try not to judge others if they don't do what we do. We all have one thing in common which we don't share with most of humanity; we love animals. We see in a turtle an innocent creature who's life is worth something. That's important as so many people just murder animals left and right and will never tear up over a creature so "lowly" as a turtle or any animal for that matter.

i actually dont generally mind being criticised for my methods. if i cant debate the good points in mine and the bad points that steered me away from others, maybe im not that right. and some of my best lessons were learned from debating something with people and then finding out i was wrong. if thats how it goes, thats how it goes. i think that if someone is going to keep an animal in captivity (even short-term) they should do the absolute best they can with the info known. i have found the methods i have now come to to be the best. that may change over time as it has in the past, but it will only get better as more info is known. i never mean to offend anyone and only debate their methods, not them, that is when it becomes an argument and not a debate. as long as it stays a debate you can only learn more (this applies to both sides as robyn stated) and it benefits both sides, anyone who reads it, and everyone they go on to help.

We havn't really been arguing back & forth - well, maybe at first because we wern't exactly sure what each other meant...
Some parts of Australia ( the top half are virtually hot all year around with barely a day where you might wear long sleeves ) but down here where I am we get the seasons just like you guys do altho it has only snowed in my town once in my life time, the summers are very hot & the winters are very cold... It snows all winter in the city an hour away from me & down lower in the Snowy Mountains we have skiing etc...
And we do call chickens chooks !!!. And other things are diffrent too like diapers - we call them nappies...
We've got all different types of turtles over here too... The Ranger told me Penny could live 50 + years but there are others which will live 100 + & in the zoo's there are Galapagus which are like 153 years old etc - now thats an achievment !.
I think lighting with a timer is a great idea, altho I'm fortunate enough to have loads of sunlight coming into my bedroom window all day long but I also like to get her out in the full sun just incase the light in my bedroom isn't sufficient... I've actually just come home from a turtle food hunt, went down to a stream which is not far from my home & caught loads of tiny mosquito fish & a few pregnant ones so she can eat the babies when they are born & also zillions of water bugs which she's happily munching away on right now...
I'm supposing I should get her used to taking a pellet every now & then incase I have to go away & need somone to feed her... I'm going to look into the ones we have available here but if any of you know where I can buy online that might be better quality let me know so I can get some...
You're definantly right about live animals & plants being better tho & really you just have to be careful where you get them from, if I'm getting them from a new place I'll keep them in a jar for a few days just to make sure nothing nasty happens to them but definantly if your turtle is healthy they should be able to fight off any infection if they do happen to get one... If my turtle got sick thats when I would get something from a vet to help her but otherwise let Mother Nature take it's course... But yer if the source your getting your food supply from looks iffy ( ie: shiny stuff floating on the surface or dead fish etc - then don't use it... ) Really just common sense...
I don't have any movement in of water in Penny's tank but perhaps something I will look at when she's a bit bigger - for now she's a baby... I clean her tank several times a week - just depends how messy it's getting... I have the odd decaying leaf in there, a few plants & tiny pieces of drift wood just to make it look & feel as natural as possible for her, rocks to climb out on, a tiny bit of algae on the sides is fine, sometimes she eats it & sometimes her food eats it, but generally I keep it quite clean... Her tank is glass, the steel wool I use to clean the glass is old steel wool that has been used a lot but still good enough to clean the glass without scratching it...
Today when I was out food hunting I accidently caught a weird looking fish when I was rinsing out the net, I would have let her go but she's pregnant ( a live bearer, same as guppies & mosquito fish ) so will let her have her babies & then take her back to the same place...
I swear some people think I am crazy spending so much time gathering turtle & fish food & then bringing bucket loads of gunk home to sift throo for bloodworms & breeding them outside in buckets etc... We love our turtles !!!.

the australia zoo has a galapagos tortoise that darwin himself picked up and took while he was in the galapagos. thats probably the one the ranger was talking about. i think that is the zoo with steve irwin, have you been to that one? if you are planning on letting your turtle go i probably wouldnt start him on any pellet food. did you see the pics of my animals?

I havn't been to Steve's zoo, I'd like to oneday... He's mad !.
I havn't seen your photo's, I started to try & find them - I'll have another look now...

Is this what you are looking for?
http://s2.invisionfree.com/Fishpondinfo/in...topic=1161&st=0