Hi. This is my first post here and I just thought it would be easier for everyone to understand the situation (Robyn especially). My high school has started an Ecology Club in school and we had received a donated 50 gallon fish tank in late September, 2005. Our club meets on Fridays and we felt that we would be able to keep watch during the week and work around the two day absence issue. We have tried to start up the tank previous times but they have ended in disaster. As President of this club I am very distressed and hope that this attempt will be successful. I will describe the previous set-ups within this post in case there are some clues as to the death of the fish. I have never had animals before and I try to do as much research to sustain the club so I really hope we can get this tank to run. If I wish to skip the stories, scroll down until you see the break.

After getting the fish tank, we proceeded to clean the tank and buy supplies. We bought gravel off all different colors as well as sand and cleaned them all. All decoration that were bought were also rinsed with water before added. We had planned on getting 2 male betas and 2 female betas since they seemed hardy fish. We did not have a filter because we did not feel the need knowing that betas breath from the top, we would simply change 20% of the water a week. As embarrassing as it sounds, I did not know heaters existed and so we did not have one either. We bought two, banana like plants. (I’m sorry I don’t know the name of them.) That next week we filled the tank with water, added the fish and plants. The idea that the betas would not fight if they were in a big enough tank was a fabrication, within an hour after adding them to the tank, they began fighting. The red male beta initiated the fight, but the blue one took the upper hand and was able to kill the red one. The females swam together and away from the males. Friday ended with 2 female betas and 1 male beta with a shredded tail. Monday morning, the plants, the male and one female were found dead. We removed them. Sadly, we had failed. The female was moved to a 3 gallon tank donation which was made. It came with fake plants, gravel, a filter, and for the first time in my knowledge, a heater. The beta was moved where it lived until we reattempted out next set-up in mid November, 2005. We had learned from the first tank set up, at the expense of those poor fish, that we needed to let the water sit 48 hours, a heater, and a filter.

During this set-up, we purchased 12 fish and 4 plants, a heater, and a power filter (AquaClear). The fish we bought ( I will try to remember as much as I can about them) were 2 plecos, 2 guppies (1 male one female. These were placed in the 3 gallon tank to breed), 2 24kt mollies(?), 2 Neon Tetras, 2 catfish, (they were like a white/gray with really long whiskers and they spent most of their time on the bottom with their weird pleco like mouth, unless we tried feeding the beta, they ate most of her food) and 2 fish that looked like angel fish but were for fresh water (one was like a zebra and the other was silver). We then bought an Underwater Fern, 2 more of those banana plants, and some potted grass. On one Thursday afternoon, we set up the filter and heater allowing them too run for a day before adding the fish. We kept the fish in the Science Lab beakers. (They were sterilized don’t worry and we only used water from the bags so we didn’t get them stressed.) The next day the Zebra angel fish and the male guppy were dead, but we slowly transferred all the other fish into their respective tanks. That Monday, we came in to find the plecos and other catfish dead. After extensive research that night, it was decided they had ick. Tuesday morning, the neon tetras and one molly were found dead. We treated the tank but it didn’t work, within a week they were all dead. Everyone died except for the female guppy that never came in contact with ick and lives to this day.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




We have removed the water from the tank and cleaned all the algae off and scrubbed it all with a sponge and hot water then dried it quickly to prevent bacteria from entering. The gravel and sand was rinsed as many times as we could within a half hour. And then we dumped out the rest of water and set them to dry. We now plan to get new fish in our third attempt and hopefully our last. Any suggestions on improving the tank so that the fish will hopefully be able to last for more than a weekend!

All posts are appreciated,
Swimming_Clueless

Hello, i see a few problems with your settup. You didnt cycle the tank(reason fish porbably died), and some of those fish arent even compatible. What kind of aquaclear filter did you have?

Im not sure a 100% sure of the exact model because its not next to me right now. But if i remember it is an AquaClear Hang-On-Back Power Filter. It came in a Blue box with Carbon, Foam, and those little White Rocks. It filters up to 300 gph. and its good for tanks up to 70 gallons or so. I think its the AquaClear 70. About the fish not being compatible, the first time, I agree, but the second time, they all got along just fine. The only problems that showed up was the long-whiskered cat fish eating most of the dried bloodworms.

aquaclear 70 sounds good. How many watt heater is it? the second time, you should have only had 1 pleco(im guessing common pleco) as they are territorial, the angels would have eaten the neon tetras, and the whiskered catfish may eat the small fish too(im guesing pictus catfish).

When we bought the plecos, (yeah the common ones) I didnt realize we only needed one because we had a lot of algae and I figured that it would take two to clean it all up. I learned, later on, that only one is needed. Nothing seemed to eat anything else, of course, if they intended to, they died before they got the chance. Do you think there were too many fish in the tank? Is 11 fish a lot for a 50 gallon tank? I also looked up your suggestion on the Nitrogen Cycle. Do you know where I can find some Nicrosomonas and Nitrobacters.

"We had planned on getting 2 male betas and 2 female betas since they seemed hardy fish. We did not have a filter because we did not feel the need knowing that betas breath from the top, we would simply change 20% of the water a week. As embarrassing as it sounds, I did not know heaters existed and so we did not have one either."

You are already aware of the mistakes there. Male bettas don't get along and sometimes females don't either (with males or each other). A 50 gallon tank is nice and great for a betta or a few females though with a heater. I think bettas need filters as well as other fish. The filter is not just for aeration but also for the nitrogen cycle. My page on water chemistry is at http://www.fishpondinfo.com/chem.htm

"During this set-up, we purchased 12 fish and 4 plants, a heater, and a power filter (AquaClear). The fish we bought ( I will try to remember as much as I can about them) were 2 plecos, 2 guppies (1 male one female. These were placed in the 3 gallon tank to breed), 2 24kt mollies(?), 2 Neon Tetras, 2 catfish, (they were like a white/gray with really long whiskers and they spent most of their time on the bottom with their weird pleco like mouth, unless we tried feeding the beta, they ate most of her food) and 2 fish that looked like angel fish but were for fresh water (one was like a zebra and the other was silver)."

That is a bit many fish to start but shouldn't have resulted in die off from ammonia, especially not so quickly. Common plecos grow over a foot long but one in a 50 gallon would probably be fine for many years to come. They are territorial so one is enough. The catfish with long whiskers are predatory species. They will eat fish small enough to fit in their mouths eventually in many cases depending on the exact species. The freshwater fish that looked like angelfish were probably angelfish. There are both freshwater and saltwater angelfish which are not related.

"We kept the fish in the Science Lab beakers. (They were sterilized don’t worry and we only used water from the bags so we didn’t get them stressed.) The next day the Zebra angel fish and the male guppy were dead, but we slowly transferred all the other fish into their respective tanks."

Were the beakers new or previously used? If used before, even with good rinsing, chemicals that were in there previously may still be around in trace amounts. Regardless of that, the stress of being in a small container without aeration or a means to deal with the accumulating ammonia levels could have been enough to finish off the angelfish and male guppy overnight.

"That Monday, we came in to find the plecos and other catfish dead. After extensive research that night, it was decided they had ick. Tuesday morning, the neon tetras and one molly were found dead. We treated the tank but it didn’t work, within a week they were all dead. Everyone died except for the female guppy that never came in contact with ick and lives to this day."

She was kept elsewhere? Ick is nasty but easy to treat. It usually doesn't kill in just a few days like that, but over a few weeks. A combination of the stresses moving from store to beaker to tank probably hastened the deaths. Ick is easily treated by raising the temperature to 80 degrees F, adding a tablespoon per 5 gallons of salt (per one gallon for salt-tolerant species which would not include the long whiskered catfish), and ick medication. The mollies and guppies like a tablespoon per gallon of aquarium salt but angelfish, neon tetras, and catfish don't like a lot (a tablespoon per 5 gallons is okay though).

What water additives did you use in the tank? Did you add dechlorinator? If not, that would result in the deaths.

Hopefully, you now have some ideas to improve your success.

My page at http://www.fishpondinfo.com/first.htm lists steps to setting up your first aquarium and may help. Good luck!

Thanks for all that. When the fish did get ick, we raised the temperature to 84 and added this Blue chemical that the fish seemed to swim through. The water had been set for a good week before we got the second batch. Unfortunately, it was too late for them I guess. The female guppy was in a 3 gallon tank which I hope to convert to a quarantine tank in the next set up to prevent another ick epidemic. I was thinking about getting African Dwarf Frogs after reading about them, mostly from your website. I was wondering if there is a specific transfer procedure for the frogs like there is with the fish. I have heard of aquatic turtles kept in tanks with frogs and frogs being kept in tanks with fish, but can you keep turtles and fish in the same tank? I also found out that guppies are usually the ones to bring ick into the tank. We thought the male had died from strenuous activity (the female was found pregnant the following week). Although the guppies were put in different tanks, they were put in a beaker with the angel fish and neon tetras; I think that they must have transferred ick to the others that night. This time, we will let the water set for at least 7 days, with the heater and filter running, as well as a few plants. I am considering putting in fish food to start the Nitrogen Cycle in advance this time but I don't know if I have the bacteria in my tank. How do you tell?

To get bacteria in your tank, i recomend stress zyme, works great. Turtles shouldnt be kept with with frogs or fish in an aquarium IMO, they will kill them. Also, 7 days isnt really a long enough cycle, it lasts for a couple of weeks. Start the cycle by adding food as you said. You should consider purchasing a master test kit, its great to have while cycling a tank.

What about transferring the frogs? Is there any specific procedure that needs to be followed like with fish to help make it less stressful? Do you do the same thing with frogs as you do with fish (let the bag sit in the tank for 15 minutes then slowly add water and allow it to adjust). Thanks for telling me where to get the bacteria. Are there any Major consequences to adding the fish mid-cycle (death or disease)?

There is no point in adding a fish mid cycle, it could possibly die. I aclimated my frogs the same way as fish.

yes, its not a very good idea to keep turtles with anything other than turtles or things they wont eat (which doesnt leave much to choose from). i have never kept frogs on purpose, although i've had a few move in to my ponds, and move out once they saw turtles already lived there. i've also rescued a few. turtles make a big enough mess with fish, i dont even want to see what they do to frogs.

to start a freshwater aquarium, i usually cycled the water for a few days with no fish, then add some zebra danios for a while until the nitrogen cycle cycles. most fish stores will test your water for free, and if they are reputable they wont sell you fish (or strongly advise against it) if the water isnt just right.

If I'm planning to add salt to the fish tank, what type of salt should we add?

I assume you mean adding salt for freshwater fish? If so, then there's aquarium salt or pond salt that most fish stores sell. Non-iodized regular salt (NaCl) is fine too.

Acclimate aquatic frogs the same way as you do fish.

Most turtles will eventually nip at most fish. Also, turtles are messy, and their tanks aren't going to be very clean for fish. That said, some people mix the two. I wouldn't.

It's a bad idea to add fish food to start the cycle. The rotting food will probably become fungused. You can cycle a tank with a fish or two or ammonia (it should be just ammonia and water and nothing else). If your tank was up for less than a week, it probably has very little good bacteria in there.

It's not a good idea to add more fish while the ammonia and/or nitrite are high.

Thanks so much you guys!!! I cant tell you how much your advice has helped in the new set up! This Friday we will be cleaning the tank and rinsing everything one more time before adding them in. We're going to put everything in the tank, fill the tank up with 40 gallons so the frogs have room to breath, and add 7 tablespoons of the salt from the petstore. The filter and heater will be running during this time. The only living thing at that point will be the plants. A week from this Friday, after the chlorine has been removed, we will use the guppy to help start the nitrogen cycle and add Stress Zyme to the tank. After the cycle is done we will add 2 dwarf frogs and compatible fish that have yet to be decided. I hope this will keep them all alive this time.

No need for salt unless there is disease really, plus the frogs and salt dont mix! Before buying new fish, just check here, cant trust pet shop employes most of the time.

I like to use aquarium salt in all my tanks, around a tablespoon per 5 gallons. The frogs don't like a lot of salt but that little amount will help them as it suppresses bacteria and fungus. In fact, salt is the treatment when dwarf frogs get bloat which happens too often.

Ok good. Then the 7 tablespoons it is. I hope the plans will help them survive for more than a week. Unless I was missing something?