After almost 4 months, I've finished renovating my turtle pages. They are in their own directory now at http://www.fishpondinfo.com/turtles/index.htm
I went from 11 htm files to 26. Next on the agenda for updating (new subdirectories, check links, new text, read all text, etc.) - cats, plants, insects, birds, frogs (amphibians), fish (don't know how I'll do that one with so many htm files!), ponds, etc. Let me know what you think.

hey robyn, on your site it says in MD you CANNOT have a turtles under 4" even with breeding? so basically you can't breed turtles because you will have hatchlings?

we have the 4" law here, but its only a restriction for selling them, I can breed mine and have hatchlines (up to a point, I think if you have more than 10RES or 10 of any of the same species of native animals, you have to get a permit)

around here, you can pick any fish/pet store and they'll have turtles under 4 inches, but they have a sign "for educational purposes only" so they get a loophole there. you can see most of them are wild caught anyway, i wish i could buy them all and keep them in a nice home, but i cant afford that many turtles.

id be surprised if any were wild caught, how can you tell they are? they are so cheap and easy to come by it wouldnt be worth the trip into the woods. and the little sign saying they are only for educational purposes isnt really a loophole, it wont keep them form getting in trouble if there is any evidence they dont enforce the sign/law.

i went into a local shop once and saw some that had peices of their carapace missing/bitten off. another time the guy that worked there told me they were wild caught. around here, RES are so common here, you can go to any body of water and find them. They are so common here, people put them in the same nuissance category as opossums and mice and rats and just kill them when they see them.


i dont really agree with the 4 inch law at all. I think if you keep the turtle tank clean then you can avoid any diseases and when you get through handling them, just use some anti-bacterial soap and wash up really good.

i just wish people that worked in pet stores knew things about animals. i overhead some girl at a pet shop telling some woman buying a RES for her son "the way you tell between a boy and a girl turtle is the boy has a red stripe on the side of his head"...

bite marks and other damage can definitely occur in captivity, but if thats what they say it could definitely be the case. i just dont know why you would spend the time to go out and catch wilds when you can get them captive for under a dollar each. education is the most important (and lacking) thing when it comes to animal care. any animal can carry disease that humans can catch. i just read a book on fish disease and there is at least one disease that you can catch from fish. i think the 4" law was a good thing if you look at it form the turtles' point of view, its immeasurable how much suffering was avoided by passing that law. so many baby turtles slowly dying in those little plastic trays, completely unnecessary.

thats with any animal... dogs, cats, birds, fish, turtles... if you dont know what you are doing or dont care, then the animals are just going to suffer.

i don tknow what they can get them for, but i know they sell them turtles for about 15-20 dollars each.

i know they are available for under a dollar each. yes, education about any animal should be a prerequisite for being in charge of its life. but thats not the case and due to their otherwise popularity im not that opposed to the 4" law. i do think they should also limit other animals. there should be some sort of relatively easy (but not too easy) to get permit for things like baby turtles, iguanas, any snake that maxes out over about 7', and many fish. i say permit because there should be some way to make sure the person knows what they are doing and are capable of dealing with the animal in all of its life stages. i do not think a permit for these animals should be too hard to get, just enough to make sure the animal is going to a suitable home. what do you guys think?

i agree with that, but i hate the all inclusive 4" rule. yes there are some people that shouldnt be allowed to touch animals, but then the law restricts people like Robyn who are great animal lovers and would give them a good home. I plan on seeing if my females will lay some eggs this spring, so i can be a turtle "grandpa". I may go ahead and get a permit for them so i can sell some babies, i dont know about other states, but here in Texas, you can own them, but you have to have a permit to sale them, and if you dont have a permit, you can sale them only to someone that has a permit.

you mentioned some animals i forgot, especially snakes, although i'm not a huge fan of snakes, i do think permits are need for the bigger species, those snakes that get 7+ feet in length are pretty powerful animals.

I do agree with WHY the 4" law was made, but I think things sometimes can get blown out of proportion... I wanted to get a priarie dog, but a couple years ago with that monkey pox scare, those things have become so restricted, you cant get one unless you already had one.

Robyn is in MD which has there own separate 4", not just the national one. i dont agree with MDs at all from what i know of it. i agree, there are many people who are more than capable of keeping them, my reason for making a permit a requirement. i have raised a lot of baby turtles to different ages before i got rid of them. i didnt know that was the reason for the prairie dog ban. is that national, TX, what? it seems they either dont regulate them at all, or go way overboard when they do. of course government doesnt always do everything perfect (what an understatement). i also think they should teach pet care in school. if they are going to teach auto tech, wood shop, home ec, and all that stuff they should teach pet care. with all those other things if you screw up you start over, with animals if you screw up they can die, yet they dont teach it. considering how many americans have pets i would make it part of the required curriculum, but they should at least have it as an elective. that would probably be the most effective way to fight animal cruelty/neglect and the unknowing mistakes made by most.

some places have some types of classes like those you mentioned. where i went to school, we had agricultural classes, which dealth with cows, pigs, poultry and related animal care.

regarding the prairie dogs, it may just be texas, a few states have put prairie dogs on the restricted or banned list since then, but i dont know how strict it has become.

sorry robyn, i think we've gotten a little off topic, but it has turned into a good discussion.

Yeah, it's a bit off topic. I think that most people who have animals shouldn't because they either are ignorant or are not willing to put in the time, supplies, and money involved. That goes for all animals. The animals that are allowed have few protections from cruelty. Forbidden animals sometimes are over regulated. Hedgehogs are still illegal in some states. PA claims they will escape and harm native wildlife. Huh? They are tropical and die over winter. In the 50's, the dime store turtles were tortured by the hundreds of thousands so the 4" rule helped turtles in general but hurt individual people who did know what they were doing.

I talked to the two DNR permit people responsible for MD. They both said that I, as an ordinary citizen, cannot get a permit to legally have a baby turtle, period. I'm not sure if there are permits for breeding but certainly selling under 4" is forbidden. It's a health department thing. But, get this, if I were a business that harvested baby turtles from the wild by the thousands to be shipped to China to be eaten or raised for breeding and subsequent eating, then I could get a permit. Many such permits the guy tells me exist. The DNR people were really nice and agreed the laws are heinous. They said for me not to worry; they're not coming to get me like my father thinks. :ph43r:

Robyn,
My daughter has 2 RES that are a couple months over 1 year old. She is going away to college, so you know what that means!! :o They are in a Rubbermaid type tub in her room. What I am thinking is: I can get a hard plastic kiddie pool and put it on my deck when the weather warms up. Put plants and rocks in it and shade part of it. And put a filter on it. Then in the fall, move the pool to the garage, near the garage door so when I clean out the pool, I can drain the water through a hose, directly outside. What do you think? I am open for suggestions!! I don't want to have to enclose my fish pond, so that is pretty much out of the question.
Thanks!!
Ellen

That could work. What is their carapace length? I'm guessing maybe 3" for that age. A couple of RES could do okay for many years in a 40 gallon breeder tank if you want to keep them indoors. Eventually though, they'd need something bigger. My one turtle is now in a 20 gallon tank and should be okay there for 3 or so years before he must upgrade. Most kiddie pools have about the surface area of a couple of 40 gallon breeder tanks. But, they're much more shallow (and you have to keep the water level low to keep them from escaping). You might consider digging a more permanent outdoor turtle pond. It would need full fencing though to keep the turtles in and safe from predators.

Good luck!

that would work while they are still smaller, but once they get bigger, they need to be in deeper water. they love to swim.

robyn beat me too it :)

Robyn and Jarrod,
Thank you both for the advice!!! I will try the pool this spring. If we do decided to use something more permanent, I will check with you both to make sure things will be right!! Thanks again. It is so nice to have dependable people when you need advice!!
Ellen

i dont know their size now, but RES can hit 4" their first year. you may also want to look into stock tubs for koi. they can be found pretty cheap, and you can find them very large (and they do have sizes more apprpriate for your uses). but in the end an outdoor pond, huge indoor tank, or something like a large stock tub would be necessary.

Reptile Guy,
Thank you so much for the info!!
Ellen

anyone ever use Riverbed Sand for turtles, the labels say great for aquatic turtles, i'd like to use something like this, but i dont want it to get stirred up and cloud up the water or get sucked in the filter,does this stuff stay on the bottom?

i wouldnt use any type of sand. the only turtles that like it are softies and they dont even need it. i had sand kill 2 filter impellers in 24 hours. no need for it and it will just cause problems.

thats what i figured. i normally dont use any substrate in my ponds. gravel to me is just a breeding ground for sludge and muck.