Hi Guys I am new to your chat room and am sorry i only just found it, my immediate problem is i have a fish goldfish/comet dying he has some nasty ulcers on his side I have been treating the pond with anti bac and fungus for the prescribed 5 days, he was hard to catch before the treatment and a little hard to catch during to look at his wounds today he is lifeless, now i find out the "medicine" kills the good bacteria in the pond its already killee the mussel and probably all my other 11 fish will have what hes got, I am trying to do right by this guy and the others is there anything i can do to bring him back ?
clearly i have a water problem and i would be more than happy to take advice on that later but right now is there anything i can do for this fish i feel awful its dying on my watch, long story but i inherited six fish 9 months ago when i moved into this house ( the last guy said he didnt even have any fish in there!) i have cleaned it out ,bought a pump and filter spent money on chemicals and test kits, yadda yadda and they are going to die on me after living in six inches of rotting leaves and a ton of elodea!
I was just reading about salt but then someone said you can use table salt then someone said no then dishwasher salt then only 1% of the ponds water value...someone please help i realise reading the postings i am not alone and this can happen to others seasoned keepers and newbies but i just wish there was something i could do for him right now .....

Hi and welcome!
I am sorry to read that you are having such trouble.
I am new to the board and ponding myself so I can't offer much help. But if you keep watching the board and Robyn will most likely be on a little later today.
Good luck!!

I'm sorry about your goldfish. Ulcers can be nasty. I avoid using "medications" in my pond when possible as they can cause problems. Some antibiotics (not all) can kill the good bacteria which raises the ammonia and nitrite which can be deadly. Many fungal and parasitic medications are deadly to weaker fish, snails, clams, shrimp, insects, etc. I'm sorry about your mussels.

I suggest treating the pond with pond salt at 0.05% (more harms plants and some animals), good bacteria (to reseed your biological filter), maybe KoiZyme (see http://www.koizyme.com/learnaboutlymno.html for a description; it contains bacteria that compete with bacteria that are involved in ulcers), and MelaFix by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals which is an all natural antibiotic that is safe for everyone in the pond. If you want to do more aggressive treatment on your ulcered fish, I suggest removing him to a smaller pond or aquarium for treatment with stronger antibiotics.

I suggest doing a total cleaning on the pond to remove the leaves and gunk. The bacteria that cause ulcers thrive in all that debris. I have a page on how I clean my 153 gallon pond each spring at http://www.fishpondinfo.com/myfish/clean.htm that may give you some ideas.

My page on salt is at http://www.fishpondinfo.com/fishcare/salt.htm and covers your salty questions.

I hope your fish get better!

thanks Robyn
i just looked at the sick fish i dont think he has long,i guess not much i can do for him...i have ordered a new bigger pump and filtration system as from what i have been lead to believe i have a fairly constant nitrite issue, so need better filtration, i guess the medication has wiped out the good bacteria compounding the issue, I hope to get the new system in tomorrow and will aim to get it going immediately along with doing a partial water change again.
I had no idea the meds would be so devastating to other essential life, there is nothing on the label to advise...
Since cleaning the pond at the begining of the season I have really tried hard to not let leaves etc settle in there and regularly pull out anything on the bottom, even now i can clealy see the base of the pond, i assumed (wrongly i guess) no solids on the bottom no problem!, its just a real learning curve trying to come to terms with the fact the pond before me must have reached some sort of natural equilibrium, hard to believe if you saw the muck i pulled out of it.
I will follow the links too, thanks for your help and i look forward to learning much more and maybe relaxing and enjoying my fish at long last with the chat rooms help..
regards
Avon

Hi Robyn and others
I got my new pump yesterday and set it up, its a lot more powerful than the previous model, the water is already visibly more clearer and I have been continuing with the partial water changes, I have now taken out the old pump and everything that was in the pond so its just fish and a pump, so three days on after doing the partial water changes there is no significant change to the nitrite level (according to my test kit) amonia is better, ph good and nitrate low, I cannot seem to lower this nitrite.
Fish seem ok they are hanging around in a bunch not swimming around too much and not really eating, weather is mild.
Do you think they are just a bit phased with everything or are they sick too?
I have checked them for physical signs and see no ulcerations on them,
Any ideas anyone?
Avon

I'm glad some things are improving. Salt can reduce the toxicity of nitrite, and water changes will help. It's hard to say if all the changes are why the fish are slow or if something else is wrong. You may have to wait to further access the situation. Hopefully, they will perk up as they get used to the changes.

Thanks Robyn
I did a water change and then went back and they came up for the food so hopefully things are on the up, What are your thoughts on salt?
Several weeks ago i bought pond tonic salt then read household salt was just as good then someone said household /cooking salt /table salt is not the same as it has iodine in it, I was subsequently told dishwasher salt does not have iodine in it that it can be used but is still no replacement for pond salt..what are your thoughts?
regards
Avon

Avon,

I found a link to some Pond Salt here: http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/cat/info/23555/category.web
I have ordered from these folks before through a link from Robyn's website (she gets some type of small percentage I think) and they were great. I didn't order pond salt so I can't tell you anything about that. I have been reading your posts to learn myself :)

Glad to see things are getting better for your fish!

HTH

Thanks tlc, interested to know though if pond salt /household salt/ dishwasher salt are same/different, certainly pond salt will be at a premium when compared to table salt, obviously someone trying to sell me pond salt in an aquatic shop is going to tell me its totally different but is that for sales reasons or??
Just trying to establish if its a myth as I dont wish to harm my fish trying to save a buck, but if they were sick and I didnt have pond salt available but had a cupboard full of table salt that could help them it would be good to know...
Anyone care to comment?
Avon

As far as salt goes, you can use anything that is just "sodium chloride" which has the formula of NaCl. If it has other stuff in it, it may or may not be safe. I don't know what's in the dishwashing salt but it should say on the package. I would bet it's more than NaCl. If the container doesn't say what's in it (all the ingredients), I wouldn't use it. You can get huge, cheap bags of just NaCl from places like Home Depot but be sure it's only NaCl and not some other salt or NaCl with other chemicals that could be toxic to your pond life. NaCl is NaCl period. It doesn't matter what someone calls it. You just have to rely on the labels which legally do NOT have to list all the ingredients. So, buying "pond salt" is the safer bet if not the most economical. Table salt, (NaCl with iodine and anti-clumping agents) contrary to what some say, will most likely not kill your fish or overtly harm them at least not initially. Over time, too much iodine can cause thyroid problems in the fish (and other animals for that matter). I'm not sure of the effects of the various anti-clumping/anti-caking chemicals on fish. Ironically, when I had shrimp in my aquariums (and others who do), I added extra iodine for them which did not seem to harm the fish. In an emergency, NaCl with iodine can be used. But, what exactly is a salt emergency? I don't know that that exists. I keep a lot of aquarium and pond salt around because compared to my other animal supplies (especially medications), it's not expensive.

My page on salt is at http://www.fishpondinfo.com/fishcare/salt.htm as I mentioned before. If it's lacking something you want to know, you can ask about that. I know my web pages are sorely deficient in information!

I order most of my stuff from That Pet Place and some from Drs. Foster & Smith. Only Drs. Foster & Smith has an affiliate program to which I belong so I won't get anything from an order from That Pet Place (even though I prefer them myself, lower prices). I order this big pond salt container myself which isn't that expensive:
http://thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/199552/product.web

Thanks again Robyn, it all helps, as a "newbie" you hear a lot of stories and you have to sort through them all and make your call, its good to hear it from an expert.
btw the fish are looking a little more relaxed today, still getting a nitrite reading though, and weather was so bad didnt manage to do the partial water change today, but they were coming up for food and all swimming together and the water is crystal clear so its all moving in the right direction.
avon

I am new to ponding but the posts and Robyns advice has been dead on. I did a small salt addition to the pond and I got the home depot stuff and to desplve it in order to put it in was the chore. I did use NON IODINE table salt in order to make it work and well the salt from home depot went in my water sofener no loss I guess and well adding the salt the fish PERKED way up like they were totally differnt fish like fishwanna. LOL Nothing happened to them but remember that salt doesn't evaporate. The salt will take a tole on the plant a bit but when all that settles down I also covered 75% of the pond fith floater that will also give oxygen and filter the pooope and stuff with there roots all levels need to be at zero and that is when you know that pond has found its balance (not that it can't change in a blink of an eye)

I use morcolift PL for good bacteria and it works great and ask Robyn about putting in some activated carbon in your filter that has made wonderful differences in the pond water itself.
I wish you the best of luck
Chris <_<

Hi Robyn
I need help again, after the first fish died as i said I replaced the pump and filter with a bigger set up altogether, the last week or so has been great as far as water readings have gone even the nitrite was down almost to trace, and every other reading right on target although I had one fish still not acting normally, anyway this morning hes dead in the pond ....I removed him and he has horrible marks where something is eating him alive down both sides (he has worse injuries than the last one that died) I have tried to look at the others and one has a tiny cotton wool growth one side (although this does appear to be getting smaller) and a comet is quite swallon one side, I have started using interpet pond goldfish broad spectrum treatment for fungus bacteria white spot and parasite problems its a five day treatment. (And I guess I am killing all the bacteria in the filter again)
I feel the comet is bad enough to move to a quarantine tank which I have done.
I have added dishwasher salt to the quarantine and the pond as well as the above medication, my viewing area of the pond is higher and as such i now realise it is difficult for me to see these wounds on the fish from above, i will try to examine the others further later, but what else can I do???????
general question if I put a lone comet in a 10 gallon 40 liter tank does he need a pump for oxygen in there? I have put my original pump in there with him but it is about a third the size of the tank.
Any help encouragement tips etc would be greatly appreciated
regards
Avon

I'm sorry about your fish. Can you describe the "eaten alive" symptoms more? Does it appear to be rotting from bacteria or more like a physical injury?

The wooly stuff on the goldfish is probably fungus. The medication you're using sounds like it kills most everything which probably means it's pretty strong which may harm some plants, animals, and/or bacteria in the pond.

Goldfish should have aeration no matter what size their tank is. They use a lot of oxygen.

What is listed as being in the dishwasher salt?

Can you post photos of the sick fish?

Hi Robyn
Fish have large open raw wounds on them I can post pics but am looking how to do this can you advise?
Do I need to attach (cant see a button) or do i need to post pics somewhere else?

dishwasher salt says its pure thats all..I will get pond tonic salt tomorrow now.
no plants or anything else in pond now just fish so hopefully only casualties will be bacteria
and thanks i will keep the pump/filter in the quarantine then
avon

To post a photo, you must first put it up on a web site. You can do that on any number of free photo sites like photobucket.com or I can post it on my site. Then, when you're tying a message, click on "IMG" and insert the URL (web site address) of the photo. When you "Add reply," the photo will appear in the message.

If the dishwasher salt doesn't say exactly what's in it, I wouldn't use it.

Hi Robyn
I got pond salt today along with some more medication, i did a partial water change in the pond and am trying to see if the fish in there are showing wounds, from what i can see maybe 2 have a small rock salt grain size infection on their sides, the guy in quarantine looks like he is missing scales but certainly does not have open wounds like the 2 dead ones, dilemma is is he getting better or is he still developing disease?
Thanks for the schooling in picture loading, I actually emailed the pics to you at info @ last night...did you get them?
Uploaded them to photobucket as well so lets see......
Avon
http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee17/mb...htractor001.jpg
http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee17/mb...htractor005.jpg
http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee17/mb...ent=fish006.jpg

I'm checking this before my e-mail so I haven't seen the ones you e-mailed me yet.

The photos here show what seems to be a nasty bacterial sore. I looks like Aeromonas which is more common in koi. Aeromonas in goldfish may be called goldfish ulcer disease. There is probably more on it at http://www.koivet.com but the site won't let me in right now ("too many connections" it says).

It's hard to say if your other fish are getting better or worse if you don't know how they looked before. Hopefully, antibiotics will help them.

Robyn
i tried koivet the other day it read the same for me..so you think ulcers?
I just pulled the quarantined one out because it was hard to see his injury but it is still there and could i think be getting bigger and worse or healing it certainly isnt broken through to the "meat" but looks like he brushed up against glass paper and lost his scales and its swallon.

I partially changed his water tonight and partially changed the pond water last night added pond salt to both and the medication..however i just checked the meds theres the broad range for white spote flukes fungus bacteria finrot mouthrot and an anti parasite one and an anti fungus and bacteria one....I know in the shop there is a seperate one for ulcers its the only one i dont have!
thats maybe why after treating the other guys with the anti fungus/bacteria med they died..i am not treating the problem!
oh jeez well i guess i know where i'm going tomorrow and for what, lets hope these guys are strong enough to last out, however i still see the grain od salt cotton wool mark on the red fish thats supposed to be treated by the fungus bacteria med
but what do i do now three days into a five day course??? stop what i am doing now and treat both pond and quarantine for ulcers?
avon

They could be ulcers which are bacterial so, if your medication says it works against bacteria, it might help.

It certainly sounds like at least that one fish also has fungus but that's probably secondary to the bacterial infection. In other words, the bacteria cause the ulcers, and then fungus also takes advantage of the open wounds.

I would treat them with the pond salt and a medication that says it works on ulcers or at least bacteria like Aeromonas.

What exactly is listed in the medication that you are currently using? It sounds like something generic since it says it treats everything so maybe it's potassium permanganate or malachite green? Most broad killing "medications" are really hard on the fish and kill the smaller life in the pond. Too much "medicine" can sometimes finish off the fish faster than the initial problem.

Not knowing if the current medication is working, you may want to finish the course of that and then do a 20% or more water change. Add dechlorinator and the amount of salt needed for the changed water. Aerate well for a day (to give them a break). Then, start the new ulcer medication. If you don't want to wait, do the water change now and then do the new medicine.

Well I bought anti ulcer meds and put that in with the lone comet in quarantine, its an 8 day treatment one dose wait 4 days another dose..... this is the second day.
As for the others in the pond I have gone back to the anti fungus and bacteria med (not the broad range) which is a four day treatment, as with the above this is the second day.
I guess I can put some pond salt in there too.
The anti ulcer med says it contains formaldehyde
The anti fungus and bacteria doesn't state contents, however it tints the bottle a brownish color but in the dispenser top looks emerald green and when it hits the pond it is bright green like automobile anti freeze...so maybe this is malachite green?

I thought before I had killed off all the little guys (river species fry) but no they are still there so hopefully no casualties as stated previously no plants or molluscs in there.

I guess its my call so i decided to go back to the original treatment and "hope" that they have fungus or bacteria and we get it with this med, the broad range maybe should be used if they look a bit off color in the beginning maybe a bit like vaccination, certainly until i can positively i.d the cause I need to do something and quick so i am going this route it will end in one of two ways i guess.
I did a partial before commencing new meds yesterday
I'll keep you posted
thanks
Avon

Yes, it sounds like the one medication might be malachite green. Formaldehyde is pretty nasty stuff too. It's used to preserve dead animals and their parts.

I hope the new treatments help!

Hi Robyn
Yes, I remember it from my school days, do you know exactly how the formaldehyde works on the ulcer then?
bottle says 1 x 25ml per 400 liters so I calculate the comets in a 40 liter tub so I have to give him 2.5 ml of solution its hardly anything, there is a strong temptation to over dose to cure it fast....but I dont want to pickle him so am keeping to the dosage.....lets hope it works
thanks for all your help by the way
regards
Avon

The formaldehyde oxidizes the bacteria kind of like hydrogen peroxide does or bleach. The bacterial cells are more sensitive to toxic chemicals and die first but, if there's enough formaldehyde, it kills the fish too. If you follow the directions, it should be safe.

Hi Robyn
I have to say its not looking good, I managed to net two others tonight and photograph the red one with the white spot on his side he may have something near his mouth too pic 2002 , and another comet, the comet has fin rot on its tail and dorsal fin pic 2003.
The other pic is of the quarantined fish to try to show the ulcer2001,
today is the 4th day of a 5 day meds course in the pond and two have ailments that I can still se possibly more, why is this stuff not working?
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee17/mbedlam/fish2002.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee17/mbedlam/fish2001.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee17/mbedlam/fish2003.jpg

If after the fifth day of the bacteria and fungus meds theres no improvement should I put as many affected ones in the quarantine and add the anti ulcer in the hope it kills whatever is on them?

Avon

Those photos all seem to indicate bacterial problems and ulcers. Bacteria can be resistant to certain antibiotics. There are gram positive and gram negative antibiotics that attack different kinds of bacteria. You may have to use both because one may not work. You're treating with formaldehyde the one fish and the rest malachite green, right? They will help kill a lot of things but aren't specifically antibiotics. I suggest trying antibiotics. Start with say erythromycin and minocycline. I've used those (sold as Maracyn I and II by Mardel) in my aquariums for various problems. They don't harm the good bacteria or other animals and can be used at the same time to cover both gram positive and negative bacteria.

How big is your pond (not sure if you mentioned that)? If it's large, then removing the fish to quarantine makes sense. Otherwise, since this seems to be contagious ulcers, I would treat the entire pond if economically feasible. Antibiotics aren't cheap.

Although koi are more apt to get ulcers, goldfish can too. I add KoiZyme to my pond in the spring to help prevent ulcers. It might help your pond. See http://www.koizyme.com/learnaboutlymno.html for how it works.

Here are some articles on Aeromonas (a bacteria that causes ulcers in many cases) and goldfish that may be helpful:

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/articles/aeromonas.html

http://www.goldfishconnection.com/articles...d=64&parentId=7

Oh, one site mentions trying MelaFix which is an all natural antibiotic. A lot of the sites mention water quality so double check your pH, hardness, ammonia, and nitrite levels.

Other articles mention that ulcers can be caused by Aeromonas but also its buddy that I forgot to mention Pseudomonas.

Thanks Robyn
I have to work now but I will read up on the antibiotics you mention and read the articles later, just an update I have bought air pumps and now have 3 X 40 liter tubs with the 10 fish in I drained down the pond and pulled them all out, all have some damage, fins missing or ulcers...I have graded them best I can and bought some different ulcer meds.
So I now have
1 tub with the comet that has had 4 days of ulcer treatment now on to his second 4 day treatment he now shares with 2 more fish getting their first round of ulcer treatment.
1 tub where I have continued with the 5 day malachite/bacteria/fungus treatment, when I checked on the red fish on day 3 it didn't look much different, today I thought there may be some improvement..maybe.... so carried on with treatment.
1 tub with 4 fish in I couldn't see damage on while in pond now I see they have problems...these guys I am going to try the new meds on this says it treats bacteria and ulcers and that I can use directly on wounds, I will see how things go but maybe might get one out and apply small amount on cotton bud (if you think that is appropriate?)
I can't think of another way.....so we wait to see.... hopefully now I can see the patients and their problems and detect any change in condition a lot easier and sooner...also if I am going to lose some hopefully it wont be all because we are trying out 3 meds now and if time permits and one med seems to work I will swap them all over to that..
please let me know your thoughts.....I certainly feel happier this way I can keep an eye on them and homefully respond to any problems, I have also added pond salt as a supportive measure.
Avon

With all those things you are trying, something is bound to work! If you have a topical medication for ulcers, that would be good. I've only heard of bio-bandage which applies neomycin antibiotic to wounds. It's sold at a number of stores. Here's one (I've never bought from them):
http://www.uskoi.com/bio-bandage.htm
I bought some about a year ago but have yet to use it.

Hi Robyn
I just need a bit of info on what to expect (if anything) by moving the fish into the tubs.
the first day or so they were moving around quite a bit possibly freaking out at the space moving from a 2000 liter pond to a 40 liter tub, i have done a partial water change and added the meds again to compensate for this,and have even lifted them out for inspection and applied meds direct to wounds, the garage they are kept in is semi dark in the day and pitch black at night and I have stopped feeding....
Given the above what would you expect their behaviour to be?
What I dont want to confuse now is lifelessness and total immune system failure...
they seem to be fairly still and drifting with water movement but keeping tight with each other often bumping each other slightly
i am hoping this is them "resting" rather than dying.
please give me your thoughts, they were remarkably good about me applying the meds on a cotton bud all kept still for it, hope this was a good thing and not a sign the handling/disease has stressed them out too the limit, I was hoping i might of turned a corner as far as their health was..
avon

Other than them being sick, normal behavior to scenery change, especially the intensity of light and dark, I would say the grouping would be normal.Sick and overstressed, you've got your hands full. Anyway to bring in more light? Like putting a calming finger in a puppy cage, I'd think your presents is the only thing that hasn't changed which is why you could easily apply the meds. But drifting with water movement doesn't sound good :( , hope it changes for you soon.

Thanks SadieMay
I have a lot to learn.....and building a "picture" of goldfish life is a little tough as I get mixed messages from who I talk to in the aquatic shops, I really didn't look forward to draining down and netting them all or indeed handling because all I hear from these guys is stress, stress, stress......and the fish don't make it easy..so I can relate to the stress.
But I am just hoping although the fish are in a confined space that the treatments and water changes will improve their conditions, but any handling won't take its toll.
I guess my question here is
Is it advantageous for them to be slowing their metabolisms by not eating or would the addition of food help them build up strength?
Obviously everyone says dont feed but is this because the bacteria can live on the waste?

I do try to open the garage door to get them light when I am there during the day.

When I first got the house the pond had 6 inches of silt and decaying leaves on the bottom, and i was told this was a breeding ground for bad bacteria, everything I have read says that i should remove any green on the bottom of the pond to reduce this ..last shop I went into the guy said "well think about how much good bacteria was in there"........uh?
So that raises another question, do I want to be pulling all potential trouble making items out and blitzing with chemical treatments regularly or do I want to leave whatever falls to the bottom on the bottom and let nature takes it course, I guess if i had a lake stocked with fish i wouldn't be vacuuming the bottom....
I have refilled the pond now and have left the filter/pump on and have added bio activator to get the good bacteria back up and running hopefully when /if the fish improve i will be able to put them back into a pond with excellent quality water and go from there but what is the best option on whats on the pond bed, bearing in mind what they were living in "healthily" before I started trying to improve things. I guess its a delicate balance but would appreciate any help
thanks
Avon

The goldfish are probably scared and stressed from the move, smaller quarters, darker quarters, and a new situation. There's no way to distinguish that melancholy from their illness. You can add some fake plants, clay pots, etc. in which they can hide to make them feel more secure. Be sure to cover the indoor pond with a net so they don't jump out.

The topical treatments should help if the medication is correct.

Fish can go for weeks without eating but, if they are eating healthy food, they're healthier. The problem is due to the small confines, if they are fed, whether or not they eat the food, the ammonia will go up. You presumably don't have the same strength of biological filter in the indoor pond as you did outside. High ammonia will really bother them in their already ill condition. I suggest doing small almost daily water changes. You can put some of your biological pond filter material in your indoor pond filter. What kind of filter do you have in there, if any? You may want to check the ammonia levels almost daily.

Good bacteria live on surfaces where there are two things - high oxygen and moving water which brings food (ammonia and nitrite) past them. So, they grow well in filters and on exposed surfaces where water is moving around. The bottom of the pond is normally stagnant as far as water flow goes, low in oxygen, and there are many more anaerobic bacteria there than aerobic bacteria. Aerobic means they need oxygen while anaerobic bacteria do not. Anaerobic bacteria often produce gases like methane and hydrogen sulfide (stinky) gases as by-products. Those gases also bother the fish. So, by all means, get the gunk off the bottom of the pond. Certainly don't scrub or sterilize the pond but remove decaying plants and animals.

If the pond were truly natural, lots of leaves and gunk would accumulate on the bottom, and in a decade or two, the entire pond would naturally fill in. It's natural for ponds to first become eutrophic (no oxygen, won't support life, everything dies) and then land. I don't think you want your pond to follow that natural course.

By "pond bed," I guess you mean the bottom of the pond? It can be simply the liner, or some people add some pea gravel. I have both. It's a lot easier to clean without the gravel but gravel has its pros and cons listed on my web site.

Hi Robyn
Yeh I thought as much scared/stressed due to movement, I will try to find some cover for them tomorrow.
Thanks for the jumping tip, I had bought an unsightly net for the pond so its getting some use as their safety net..

I havent got a filter at all in these tubs just an air line which is why i was doing the water changes, i did put the original pond filter in with the first fish i quarantined but it took up nearly 1/3rd of the tub so i opted for the air lines.
I just tested one of the tubs, i am so glad you gave me the heads up on that, pretty poor readings, ok so I need to stress the guys out again with a water change....
and thanks for the bacteria class, wow never realised i was taking on sooo much
my pond is precast concrete and no gravel (i will read your page)
I have heard some people blow air up from the pond bottom does that help reduce the methane/anaerobic bacteria?

So, your ammonia was high?

Concrete ponds is one topic not on my web site. If only I had the time, really any time. I am so busy now at work and home that my web site is going to pot. Maybe I should say it's become eutrophic!

I've not heard of blowing air from the bottom of the pond. I've heard of pond undergravel filters and also air stones. That idea just sounds like having a bunch of air stones on the bottom. That would certainly keep the oxygen levels up at the bottom.

Hi Robyn
sorry for late post, yes the water did show an ammonia reading (in just 3 days or so) so i changed it, to be honest it was a bad night, next morning i had lost five fish, i have been pretty low about it and well basically blame myself, this is me trying to help them!....so i took the decision to put the five i have left back in the pond and let them be, I was thinking nature will decide what happens to these guys, I had refilled the pond nutralised the water added bio activator and taken a reading, good ph, good ammonia, good nitrate... but a nitrite reading....same thing as always and thats probably 1800+ liters of new water in a 2000 liter pond that i scooped out whatever i could on the bottom and vac'd the bottom, i had also run the pump filter 24/7 still, where does this nitrite come from??????
Anyway I took it bad and personal, and just feel these guys seem more at "home" in the pond and not in a tub in my garage without filtration, swimming in tiny tiny med doses, or indeed any meds..so i have put them back in the pond and havent even gone near the pond i am so guilt ridden about it all.
I am hoping time will be a healer (for me) but I am pretty much of the opinion the only thing i will put in the pond from now is a monthly "fish safe" solution nothing else i have spent vast sums of money on meds for these guys (its not the money though) and they still died, and stressed them and me out if this is going to carry on and it probably will take the others then I am just going to let them live in their own environment and not meddle anymore until that day.
I either need to make contact with a pond keeper show them my pond and speak to someone face to face (please dont think i am not grateful for your help etc I truly am) who can put me on the right track or rethink my options, I hate seeing things die..I guess people buy all sorts of pets for kids and they die through neglect etc which is totally unacceptable but frankly the last couple of weeks has been a nightmare of a challange, and i am thinking it can't be this hard??????
so i will leave the guys alone and see what happens if its bad then its bad but i cannot face looking at these guys any more not knowing if i am helping or hurting them all the time basically experimenting on them and stressing them (and me)out, it just hurts that they lived in something that everyone in the shops told me to change and wanted to sell me something to change and I have bought it all and at the end of it these perfectly happy guys died, i just cannot explain how bewildering and deeply upsetting this is for me, maybe sometime in the future i will start going back to the pond but i dont even want to cast a shadow on it right now, i just want these guys to try to get their systems back on track if at all possible.
It really hurts I so enjoyed watching their beautiful colours darting around the pond but right now cant even face going anywhere near it..
Thank you so much for your help throughout this, (i posted on some other chat rooms and didn't even get a response, and that is incredulous, when I am asking for help to save a creatures life!
I will stay with your chat room and read your web site and hopefully my desire to have fish in the pond will return but hopefully if it does i will be more knowledgeable and vigilant.
But at least for now I have a lot of unanswered questions in my own mind and need to feel i understand more before embarking on trying again...
i wish you and all your animals well
Avon

I'm sorry about your lost fish. Have you tested your tap water for nitrite? Maybe it's in the tap water? If not, it shouldn't be there if the water is all new; that would make no sense. Test kits aren't always completely accurate so perhaps that's a factor.

It shouldn't be as hard as it has been for you. I hope you can find a local pond club or someone to come see the pond in person because it does make a big difference over just words and a photo here or there. If you're unsure of the clubs in your area, tell me what general area you're in, and I'll try to find one for you.

I myself often let nature take its course; I don't always treat fish for problems that they could be treated for because treatment doesn't always work. I too have felt guilt from lost fish even if it really wasn't my fault.

I hope that you won't ignore your pond. Just try to stress less about it. You should still check on the fish, feed them, remove any more that don't make it. Check the water chemistry say once a week but don't fret too much about it. When you ask for advice at stores, their main aim is to sell you something. If they help your fish, that's secondary. I worked at an aquarium store. One of the reasons they fired me was that I told customers the truth. I told one person for example that they shouldn't put some 20 goldfish in a 10 gallon tank. The owner overheard me. I'll never forget what he said: "Don't EVER tell a customer they can't do something. We're here to sell animals..." or something like that. In other words, he didn't care about the animals themselves whereas I would have given up my day's salary to save just one fish.

Good luck finding someone to visit your pond who can help. If you were nearby, I would do it, for free without selling anything.

Thank you Robyn for those kind and reassuring words, I know I am not the first person to have lost an animal or felt this way but it hurts especially after buying meds and putting my faith in them, actually sharing my thoughts/feelings with you and your reply has helped a little more too...thank you.
I would never add to the fishes problems by neglecting them, I will test water and remove any dead ones but right now i dont even want them to see me hanging/moving around the pond...(my wife looks in on them)
And I totally agree with your thoughts and experiences of people in stores who would sell an animal without a thought to turn a profit.
I also thank you for your offer of help.......I am actually in England so not too convenient.
I guess one of the my main questions (and i am not sure if this can be answered on email without you knowing just how bad a reading is) is when I get a reading that says i have ammonia/nitrate/nitrite/poor ph in the water and a test kit reads reduce it asap, but how quick is that? should I replace 10% of the water every day for 10 days or just fill up another container right there and transfer the fish?
what is the criteria when someone/a label says "these chemicals are bad reduce immediately" that to me says act now, do it....or am i shocking them if i introduce a totally different quality of water to them.
I am trying to equate that to this tiny creature suffering in a toxic environment and i am planning a 10 day rescue /recovery process, on the face of it it seems mad that i dont sort it in the blink of an eye....does that make sense?
But which is right, I need to know/learn this and a lot more because i will not put the fish or myself through this again
Avon

If you have actual ppm readings for ammonia for example, I can tell you if it's dire enough to require pulling the fish out. You're right though that changes can sometimes be more stressful than the initial problem. As far as pH goes, a pH of 7 to 8 is ideal. Fish can survive pH 6.5 to 9 usually. If the pH were above 9 or below 6, I would say to pull the fish out ASAP. I'd have to research the "pull out" levels of ammonia. The fish will usually tell you how dire it is. It can't be more dire than the fish all dying. Slightly off or elevated levels of things where the test kit says to fix it right away may not be too bad and could be slowly fixed. Everything is relative.

The test kit I bought (in fact the only one I have seen that does 4 in 1) has a strip of colors printed on the box, these are meant to be compared to the actual reading/ color the water goes in a test tube, I think it leaves a lot to be desired....particularly where the nitrite is concerned as that appears as a lilac color, also the printed image could vary quite considerably on the box adding to misrepresented readings.
I have a ph kit for a swimming pool I have used to double check those results but that is all it checks.
To be fair some of the stores offer to test the water for me but they have always told me that it has an excessive nitrite reading, then go on to say fish dont like nitrite it kills them etc which is what has spooked me in to possible overreaction.
Interesting you saying "the fish will usually tell you how dire it is"
I wasnt going to mention this but when I looked at one in the tub I swear the look in its eyes I knew to get them back in that pond!
Maybe its a case of getting to know your animals...our cat pretty much just has to look at us and we know what it wants..... but thats another story for another chat room...
I guess the bottom line is when it comes to reading the results it is my call and some of those calls are going to be right and some...not quite as right and that may have reprocussions.
I am going to see my family tomorrow and there is a large brand new store over that way I think I will maybe check out a more professional/koi keeper type test kit, as the one I have has already run out of ph tester and you can't buy individuals for it just another complete kit which is not ideal.
I noticed the water has evaporated and gone down slightly I will top up and add de-chlor and retest water today hopefully in stealth mode!

Test kits based on picking a varying shade of color are really subjective and can be hard to read. I have a few like that, usually shades of pink. I can go blind trying to figure out the exact reading. Those tests are better for a general idea of what's going on.

Nitrite is pretty deadly but everything is relative. The store should give you an actual reading. It's kind of like saying someone is overweight. It's a big difference though if we're saying they're 150 pounds or 400 pounds. It's not so good versus dire.

When I said the fish would let you know, I'm talking about things such as the fish acting strange (moving too fast or too slow, gasping at the surface, playing dead, etc.) or not eating. I can tell what my cats are thinking too sometimes. My cat, Gino, understands if I ask him if he wants something (like baby food). My mother trained him to do tricks (stand, spin, shake paw, etc.) using baby food but he's out of practice.

Good luck on your sneak water test!