About two years ago we bought the house next door for my mother, complete with a two or there year old liner pond. Though the previous owner was a landscaper, he didn't have any experience with ponds, and between his ignorance and my own, I've had quite a bit of trouble. I do love having the pond, though, and I'd like to put it right. Currently it's leaking at both the waterfall and the skimmer, and I need some help figuring out the best way to seal the liner to these pieces before it gets cold. The weather usually turns here in early November, and I'm running out of time.

I'm not sure what caused the leak at the skimmer. There was not enough slack in the liner, hence some of the weight of the water was hanging from the inlet. Also, the inlet is warped (perhaps from over-tightening the screws?). The body of the skimmer is bowed in one side as well, so perhaps shifting earth warped the whole thing badly enough to break the seal. And one of the the aluminum thread inserts came out when I disassembled the inlet. This was directly below the inlet where it's hard to see the inside wall with the plate installed, and for all I know, it was loose before I took a wrench to it. There was some evidence of erosion down the front of the skimmer below the inlet, but I'm not sure if that was from the leak or from rain water washing down the hill behind the skimmer. The pond has always had a very slow leak, and the previous owner installed a float valve filler to compensate. It's gotten worse now, though, and letting filler run produces frightening water bills. How do I fix this mess?

By adding some earth under the liner, I was able to get about half an inch of slack at the inlet. This is less than ideal because it makes working with the bottom row of screws awkward and may impede flow a bit when the surface is frozen. I was prepared to go ahead, though, until I realized how difficult it's going to be to get the screws back through the holes in the liner and get everything reassembled in the five minute working time of the silicone without smearing the bead so badly that it no longer fills in around the protruding thread inserts and warpage.

The condition of the existing liner is another concern. I think it's EDPM, and it seems to be in very good shape except where the seal was. There was a small amount of some very stretchy black sealant stuck to the back of the liner. Most of this pealed off easily, but there are a few rough places and there is some white stuff and some red stuff I haven't been able to get off. Looks like iron oxide and calcium so I'm guessing these are mineral deposits. The plate will compress only about a quarter inch around the screw holes, and I'm worried that unless everything is perfect this isn't going to be enough to seal.

Would it be better to get a new piece of EPDM for the inlet? That would give me a second seam in the pond, but would allow me to restore the contour of the bottom at the inlet and still have plenty of slack and would make reassembling the skimmer much less fiddly. I've never worked with these materials before, though, and I'm not sure if the necessary folds will cause problems when making the seam, or if they will put undue stress on it in the long run. I'm also not sure how likely it is I can get the the existing liner clean enough to make the seal. It looks okay, but my ignorance is abundant.

And what about that missing thread insert? I have a new aluminum machine screw and nut, but aluminum washers don't seem to be available locally and I've only got a week or two before the season turns. Do i need to be concerned about what alloy aluminum fasteners are made of, or will anything from the hardware store do? Though the rest of the screws seem to be in fair shape, the head of one of the screws next to the one with the bad insert was so thin I had to use an extractor to get it out. I'm not sure if it once matched the others or not, and I wonder if it was made of an inferior alloy.

I have an appropriate the screw, nut, and washer in stainless steel, but do I need to be concerned about galvanic corrosion of adjacent aluminum screws?. These wouldn't touch anything that's made of aluminum, but they would be much closer than steel and brass on the pump.

Is there any reason to go as far as getting a new thread insert somewhere and securing it with epoxy putty?

Or should I dig up the old skimmer and replace it? Because of the time crunch, I'd really rather not, but I do want this to stay fixed.

Please lend me the benefit of your experience. I know just enough to know that I don't know what I'm doing. :unsure:

Well Otter you got issues. Im the first thing i would do if me is just buy a new skimmer with a with a biiger opening that way you dont have to seam any liner because that doesnt always hold. When replacing i would look at either Pondmaster's skimmer or Savio's. Both of these have never collasped in like you are talking about, you probably have a Aquascape set up.

Now if you want to try to fix. If the weir plate is warped then you cant do it. The black strechy stuff is black silicone supplied when you buy it new. You can try just bolting like you were talking about with a screw and nut. Dont worry about what kind as long as it holds it will be ok. If you do try to fix then use lots of silicone under that plate.

To know if your waterfall is leaking turn off your pump for a day or two and if your water doesnt go down then you know its not the waterfall. If it does you know its in the pond.

Thanks. That's something I hadn't thought of. I could move the skimmer inward while I was at it and get some slack in the liner. That sounds like the best repair, but I'd have to dig up the old skimmer, get the new one, and install it. And it looks like winter may arrive in less than a week. ... All that might take less time than trying to fix what I've got, though. And my current skimmer seems to have a serious case of underkill.

So I don't need to bother with replacing the aluminum hardware? Folks on another forum advised me to do that.

They also said to use PL Polyurethane Roof and Flashing Sealer instead of silicone. What do you think of that? It doesn't sound like something that would be safe for fish, but I've got experienced ponders telling me that's the way to go.

The plate is not warped, but the edge of the skimmer around the hole is. I'm worried about being able to get this all back together before the sealer starts to cure, though. It was very fiddly when I dryfit it, even without having to worry about disturbing the silicone bead. The only way I've thought of to get this back together properly is to glue the liner to the plate with the screws through the holes in both. Otherwise, I don't think I could get it back together fast enough. Any thoughts?

I know my waterfall is leaking because I can see the water dripping behind the liner when the pump is on. And I know the skimmer is leaking because with the filler off, the water level drops to just below the inlet and stays there. Also, I found water behind the liner there. I'm really hoping once I fix these two problems I'll be done with leaks for a long while.

My big concern right now is getting some slack in the liner. The seal won't hold otherwise, right? Filling in in front of the skimmer might be enough, but I really hate having the earth that close to the bottom screws, and if there is any further settling, the pond is going to be hanging from the seal again. How tricky is it to add a piece of liner?

I'm afraid most of your questions are beyond my knowledge. I've never had a skimmer or repaired liners. Here are my suggestions for what they are worth.

I think you should do some temporary repairs now. In the spring, I suggest replacing at least the skimmer if not the entire liner system. That may require professional help. With both skimmer and waterfall leaking, it sounds like the pond needs to be rebuilt.

Temporarily, for the skimmer, if you can adjust the liner and reseal/bolt it onto the plate, that may at least slow the leaking. I'm afraid I don't know about the details as far as the best way to seal things. If the metal hardware is rusted or thread bare, then certainly change it if possible. If you can get an extra piece of EPDM liner to adhere to the main liner, that may help you to temporarily patch things together to slow the leaking.

As for the waterfall, the problem is most likely either that the liner doesn't cover enough area (it should be under the entire waterfall drain area), or rocks, etc. are diverting the water. You may be able to adjust rocks to reduce leakage. Otherwise, a good repair would require tearing up the entire waterfall and putting in a new liner (best to have the liner be the same as the main pond liner, all one piece) and resetting the rock work. I'm always moving my rocks to reduce water diversion and improve the flow where I want it.

The waterfall's water loss could be a major contributor to the water loss. With leaks at both the skimmer and waterfall, without water added, the pond would drain below the skimmer, at which point, the waterfall stops running, and the leaks stop.

Where do you live? If you're in a cold area, you may not be running the skimmer and waterfall over the winter. In that case, you could let them drain and wait until spring to do a major repair on both if not an entirely new liner, skimmer, and waterfall. It sounds like a lot of work that I could never do (alone at least) but it sounds like you're up to the challenge!

What's in your pond? If you end up redoing it, the pond will truly become yours because you'll be choosing everything (except the existing animals and plants) and bringing it to life.

There are a few guys who visit this forum who have built skimmers, waterfalls, etc., and I hope they will give you their ideas.

Good luck!

I agree with JRN suggestion of replacing the entire skimmer.

I would NOT seam a liner.

I'm assuming you have a bio-fall waterfall. If the waterfall is leaking chances are water is going over the edge/side somewhere. If so, there will be a definite damp area in the dirt. In that case you may need to move a few rocks, or raise the edge of liner a bit. Not a big deal. (You can also lift rocks at the edge of liner and look for wetness under them).

If water at the waterfall is not going over the edge/side of the liner, check the weir attachment. Could be leaking there, between the liner and bio-fall container. If I remember right it attaches to liner similar to the skimmer. Bio-fall wall, liner against that, then the weir on top. Nut/bolts squeeze them all together to form a seal. I also use a sealant, then tighten the screws.

That's exactly where it's leaking. I could see water dripping past that seal behind the liner, and I removed a stripped screw near the leak. Is it worth drilling the aluminum inserts out to use stainless steel?

Unless there are Aquascape clones, it's a Biofall.

I'm hoping this one will be as simple as resealing the liner. At the waterfalll, I think there may even be enough slack that I can pull the liner up past the existing holes. I've already moved the slate slab that notches into the filter box, and I don't think I'll have to move any of the other rocks. I haven't gotten very far into it yet, but the waterfall appears to be in fairly good shape.

I turned the pump off long before this because I didn't want to damage it.

LOL. I'm really not. I'm hoping not to replace the liner, as I'd need quite a few hands and probably an earth mover to shift the rocks.

I'm in NW Indiana. The pump runs all year because the cord runs under a bush and I don't want to dig that up to bring the pump in. The waterfall makes interesting ice sculptures, and there's never been a problem with the water getting trapped above the ice.

Just frogs, snails, and assorted wildlife ATM. The pond looked like something from a bad science fiction movie when we bought the house. The previous owner had tried to clean it up with chemicals without knowing what he was doing, and the result was a dangerous-looking grey soup. Next spring, Mom had a stroke in early May, and I didn't have any time at all for the pond for the rest of the year. Got it cleaned up again this summer, but it started leaking, and then it started leaking very badly. I want to get all the problems solved before I add fish -- hopefully next spring. :)

I found a Savio skimmer about 20 miles away. I think the inlet is big enough that I wouldn't have to patch the liner. My current skimmer is in such sad shape that I think it might actually be less work to replace it. Temporary repair... well maybe. But fixing things only once saves time, and I never have enough of that.

I would jus replace it with the Savio skimmer they work great and are easy to install. They hav the neck that sticks out so you dont have to drain the whole pond to install it, it also comes with guide pins to match the holes up when putting the face plate on. Even though they say you dont have to use silicone i do anyway just to be safe. With the biofalls you are right just un bolt and move liner up and then reinstall make sure you use silicone on both sides of the liner. Get some of those metal paper clips that you squeez to open, when you pull the liner up clip it to the edges of the box.
Yes there are many Biofalls out there Atlantic W.G., Pondmaster, Savio, Crystal Pond, Easy Pro, Aquascape, Eco-Systems, and theres still more.
The savio skimmer you have to opiton of face plates just measure yours and either get the 8 1/2" or the 16".

The point of using silicone on the pond side of the liner is to have more water going over the falls instead of trickling down the liner behind them? I'm so focused on water leaking out of the pond, I'm not sure I would have thought of that.

I thought "Biofalls" was Aquascape's trademark. What I meant was that I have their filter box/waterfall, or one that looks exactly like it.

Otter, yes if the insert is stripped out, drill and replace with stainless is fine.

Otter wrote:

What? How do you see that? I couldn't tell you if water was dripping behind my weir or not. I certainly couldn't watch it.

For the waterfall container (biofall), at least ones I've worked with, the pond liner comes up against the front of the container, then you make a cut in the liner to both lower corners of weir opening, that allows the liner to fold over the weir cutout area with the excess liner on the inside of biofall, then the weir itself mounts on top, and you cut off the excess.

Then if you want, like I did, use black waterfall foam, and mount a real 1-1/4" thick waterfall stone on top of the weir instead of the fake one they give you.

To mount the weir and liner to the biofall. On the front outside wall of biofall container, around the weir opening, spread a bunch (nice bead) of silicone there; that will make a seal between the liner and container. Lay the liner against it, and hold in place with small spring clamps, or something. Then find the weir itself and add another large bead of silicone on the back side of it, then while removing the clips holding the liner to biofall, set the weir in place on top of the liner, use a ice pick or the like, and poke holes in the screw holes going through the liner and insert screws, or nuts and bolts. Hold in place and begin tightening each screw evenly, little at a time, moving from one screw to the next, (if you had enough hands the idea is to tighten them all simultaneously), until all are tight. Be careful not to over tighten.

If liner starts deforming around the screws chances are the weir is too tight. If so, chances are you'll see buldges in the plastic weir, between the screws. You don't want that. That's a leak waiting to happen.

I'm glad that Johnnyboy and JRN have stepped up to help answer your questions Otter! They are very knowledgeable. I always feel bad if I can't provide input into a question. I hope you can fix your leaking skimmer and waterfall without too much work. I understand not having any time!

Otter if you follow Johnnyboy's step by step to seal the biofalls you will be set. It is the way i wish everybody did it.
Now you just have to figure out what you want ot do with you skimmer.

What about the ones that aren't stripped or can be retapped? Should I replace all the aluminum on general principles?

Looking at it again, I don't have any slack on that side. I can see behind the liner because it's pulled forward by the rocks below the falls.

When I picked up the skimmer tonight, the owner of the store was there. I'd never talked to him about ponds before before, but he knows much more about them than his employees. (Not that I'm complaining about them. They're all very friendly and helpful there and never try to pretend to know more than they actually do, and the place isn't a pond specialty store.) The owner volunteered to drive down (about 25 min each way) and take a look tomorrow on his lunch break. :blink: :blink: ! :D I was a loyal customer before, but now I may have to build a shrine.

He suggests that, instead of disassembling the fall, I just loosen it up a bit, clean everything, and squeeze some silicone into the leaky end before retightening. Maybe he'll change his mind when he sees it.

Thanks for the step by step. That's what I'll do if I take the thing apart completely.

That's how it was, except there was no foam. There was a can in the garage when we took possession of the house, but as far as i can tell, they never used it. There's a huge slab of rock that fits nicely into the plastic channel (not sure I'd call it a weir) that compresses the liner. The other end rests on a large rock. Because of the lack of slack, I may have to re-engineer the rocks or add some liner.

BTW, I'm in love with the Savio skimmer already. It's built like a plastic bomb shelter, and the rounded sides hint that, unlike most skimmers, someone who passed Engineering 101 may have had a part in its design.

Otter wrote:

Are you saying the rock sits directly on the liner, pressing it?

The weir is normally a separate piece of formed plastic, that mounts to the waterfall opening (weir opening) of the biofall container. It creates a lip for the waterfall (weir), not big, maybe 2-3" wide by the length of the opening, mounts to the front of the biofall container, again the liner installs between it and container.

If you don't have the weir that's another problem. And if the waterfall stone is not set in black waterfall foam you're probably losing alot of water under the stone, versus on top of it.

No, I have it. I was just saying I'm not sure the piece fits the definition of "weir". I could have sworn it had a channel in it so that there was plastic both above and below the end of the rock, but I was mistaken. Sorry for the confusion. Aquascape calls the piece a snout. It's hard to tell if this is the exact model I have, but the lip the rock sits on looks like the thing on the front of this filter.
http://www.aquascapeinc.com/products/aquas...trafalls_tn.jpg

Yup, Otter, that's it.

IF you didnt install the Savio skimmer just go through the instructions and it will be a easy install. The only thing i do is put silicone one the back of the faceplate before installing just to be safe. Make sure you use the guide pins.

I got the old skimmer out of the hole but I'm waiting out a couple days of cold weather before installing the Savio.

Do you really think sealant will help? The new skimmer seals on a very narrow bead, and my gut tells me there isn't enough width there for sealant to do much good. OTOH, I may regret having used the sealant if I ever have to reinstall the weir plate. And as long as the liner isn't wrinkled, I don't see how how the weir plate is going to leak anyway. Though it sounds somewhat heretical, I think I'll try following the instructions on the first go. ;)

Alright, I'm not going to follow the instructions exactly. I'm going to brace the skimmer instead of backfilling right away so that I can be sure the rest of the liner holds water at the chosen level. If there is a leak an inch or two lower and it's not at the seam, I'll probably remove the skimmer and dig the hole just deep enough to keep the water below the leak.

I always but silicone on all weir's. Even if you had to take it off later the silicone will pull right off. There is a small bead that you can run all the way around the plate just inside the screw holes.

Otter, while you're running the silicone bead on the weir, doesn't hurt to run the bead around the holes also.