Hi,

I'm bring in one of my blue orfe. He is about 10 inches and has been for the last two years. Every time the weather gets colder, he gets a kink in his back and has huge problems with swimming and eating. Again this year it happened, and by asking around, I found out this is probably due to a vitamen deficincy. As it happens every year and he's not growing, I've decided to bring him inside for a year or two to try to strength him up alittle. My question is, do I need substrate on the bottom of his aquarium and if so what kind do orfe prefer? What else can I do to make him comfortable. Hiding places or plants? I have a smaller shubukin ( about 3 inches ) that he's been with now for a week or two and I'll bring them both in together cause they both have problems with swimming. What foods would be good to include in his diet to combat the vitamin deficincy? Any other suggestions or experiences that anyone has had with this would be helpful. Thanks. Connie

I'm sorry about your orfe. I've had mine kink up too. I've never had one get better though. Your orfe gets the kink and then it goes away? I wrote a list of reasons a fish may get a bent spine at
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/health4.htm#bent

You don't need substrate on the bottom. It will make it harder to clean. Since the orfe is so big, the hardest thing will be keeping the water quality good. You can certainly give him hiding places. Some large diameter PVC pipe might work since he's skinny as long as he's not too kink that he gets stuck. Orfe won't eat plants so you can add some live plants for cover, etc. if you have proper lighting.

Orfe are mostly carnivores and may even eat small fish. I hope he's not thinking of eating the shubunkin; it's probably too big. The orfe would like mostly animal-based foods. Try some floating goldfish flakes or pellets, sinking shrimp pellets, etc. The goldfish will eat those too. The key is to chose quality brands (Tetra, Hikari, etc.) and feed some variety (not all one food). Treats of live or frozen brine shrimp, bloodworms, blackworms, mosquito larvae, etc. will be relished by both fish. While those can stimulate appetite, they may not be as nutrionally complete (with vitamins) as the commercial foods.

If we knew what, if any, vitamin deficiency were at fault, it would be a lot easier to treat with that particular vitamin. I would guess it might be Vitamins A and D, both of which should be at good levels in fresh commercial foods and live (and frozen but not to the same extent) animals.

What size tank would you put him in?

Hi Everybody,

Thanks for getting back to me.

Yup Robyn, last year he had the same thing, and I brought him in for 2 weeks and he was straight again. I thought it was the cold water, so I asked at a few of our garden centers here for ideas and they all seemed to agree that it's a vitamin deficincy and that the cold water is a stresser and makes it much worse. He certainly doesn't have it during the summer. But now this is his second year of it and he's so bent he really can't swim in a 1 meter deep pond. The Shubukin has a slightly deformed tail and has only been in a 60 liter pond alone this whole summer. And he's not grown much either to be truthful. I have some baby shubukin that I was going to put with him next year, but now the Orfe is with him. So, that's why I'm bring them both in this winter together.

As to the size of the tank, yeah, sorry to say I bought one for now, quick on ebay, that's too small. However, since I'm hoping this will only be for a year, and if I can be sure I've strenghthen him up for next winter, than I'll try him again outside. Otherwise I'll buy a much bigger tank. And than I'll have the time to look around for a good one. Otherwise the tank is now only ( I know, you don't have to say it ) 54 liters, I thought that it was 60 liters. But I always add lots of extra air, a good filter and once a week water changes, so I'm hoping to make it through the winter and if I see no change, than I'm planning on keeping him inside for good. But now I can look around for a good size for a reasonable price. There was nothing in our neighborhood at this moment, so this is what I'm stuck with for now.

The poor dear hasn't grown in two years due to this problem and he was out in 2500 liters of water, so I'm afraid he might be stunted for life. The other 4 orfe's who have all grown seem to be doing great but not him. He's the runt. All other fish out in the pond are growing and I've not had any problems with any of the others.

Also, if I'm keeping him inside, what would be the best size tank? And if he's prone to this, should I just assume it's better to keep him in? It's so hard to know with animals exactly what to do. Well, the quick fix aquarium cost only 35 euro and it's 5 weeks old, so I can always use it as a spare once I've found a good one for him, so that's not a problem, but that's why I didn't want to invest hundreds of euros this moment till I've had a chance to see what happens.

Again, thanks for all the help and any more information you're willing to share. :)

Connie

I would say for a 10" orfe, you'd want at least 100 US gallons which is 378 L. 54 L is only 14 gallons. I can't imagine keeping a 10" fish in there but you know that. Have you tried your local farm animal feed store for stock tanks? Those are the large Rubbermaid-type containers they use to provide water to cows, horses, etc. They are usually inexpensive, and here they have that 100 gallon size.

A 2500 L pond is 661 gallons which isn't small but it's not huge either. My pond is 1800 gallons or 6811 L. I have two big orfe and three little ones.

I've never seen a photo of a blue orfe or naturally colored one. Can you send a photo?

I have a question about the measuring systems. Since you're in the UK (I presume since that's the only place I've heard that you can get blue orfe), you use the metric liters but you used inches for length and not centimeters. Was that deliberate so us Americans would understand or do you guys use inches?

Good luck!

Hi Robyn,

Thanks for the reply. The problem is that in Holland no body has that much room. :) Your pond is about the size of our backyard. :) We have a good sized yard and the pond is considered on the larger size for here in Holland, if you're not including koi ponds.

I have no additional area in my garden for a cow trough and I'm not sure where I'd find such a thing here and I can guarantee that it's not such a good price here. To bring him in, and keep him warm, that's going to mean he's going to have to go in my living room, which isn't really all that big for a 300something liter aquarium. In the end, I'm getting a 60 liter aquarium for now, and if I'm forced to keep him inside, than I'll have to buy a bigger house to be able to keep him in. :o So, I'm hoping this is just quarantine conditions for the winter. He's most happy at this moment in the 60 liter rubbermaid tub outside, but there's not much room for swimming for him and there's fishline keeping the de-icer in place, so it's not the best choice, also, it's still cold water.

The pond outside has almost 3x the filter capacity ( it's for 7000 liter water ) and I keep 6 airstones going all the time. Also, I do just to be sure, 1x per month a water change when the temps are over 15 degrees celcius. I check water quality once a month just before the water change and correct right away any problems I see. So, I do know it's a little overstocked, but I've had NO deaths in years and I do everything else I can to maintain their health. That's why this is so vexing!!!!! This is the only fish ( which I bought ) with problems. I of course have some fish that I let live ( I have very reproductive fish ) even though they had some kind of physical defect, like the shubunkin with him now that couldn't swim all that good.

I do the best I can for no room and also fighting still the mentality that a round bowl is perfect for 10 goldfish. Also, most of the cool gadgets and fish accessories that are so easy to get in the states are non existant here or financially impossible. :( But I agree with you, it's the worst case scenerio for him. I just don't have any other options than killing him, and I can't do that. :(

Thanks again for the info and I hope than that this is for the shortest time possible.

Connie

We have to make due with what we have. You can only do the best that you can. Hopefully, things will work out!

Hi,

Just a follow-up. He's been in since Friday and today he's looking pretty straight, there's still a small bend a little after the gills, but his tail is much straighter than Friday. If you want to see the video difference, just email me and I'll send it. :)

Thanks again for all your help. Connie