Hello,
I am fairly new to koi keeping and am having a very difficult time with my pond this winter. I have had my pond now for a year and a half. This will my second time bringing my koi through winter and I have to say, this year has been more stressful then the last.

I am seeing a lot of unusual activity this year with my koi. Most of my fish are still swimming around even in these very cold temperatures. I did have one die a couple of weeks ago and have been watching the pond ever since. I am sick to my stomach over what is going on with the pond this year and am not sure why the Koi are swimming around so much. I fear that I will loose evern more.

My pond is an aquascape (did not realize that they are not good for Koi keeping when we built it) 18 feet wide by 23 feet long. I had no problems wintering the fish over iin the first year of owning the pond. The Koi all settled nicely at the bottom of the pond (no activity) and everyone emerged in pretty good shape come spring. I was so very happy to see that they had all made it through the very cold winter. I had worried so much about them all winter long.

This winter is a different story. Today, I went to test the water parameters and noticed two of my koi in the shallow part of the pond. They were in about 2.5 feet of water, closer to the aerator. When they saw me they dashed off to the deeper part of the pond, so I was not able to tell if they were sick or not. They did not seem sick since they moved so quickly. I also hope that I did not stress them to the point that they will now be sick. I had no idea that they were going to be there, otherwise I would not have distrubed them.

Anyhow, can anyone tell me if this can occur during the winter months with Koi? I thought that Koi went dormant in the winter with little to no activity. Our winter here in Connecituct has been milder than last year but it is still pretty cold. I can't imagine that they would be comfortable swimming around in this cold weather, which really concerns me.

Also, within the last couple of weeks, my PH has gone from 7.5 to 9.0. Can the Koi withstand a 9.0 reading throught the end of this winter? If not, what can I do to adjust it down? Since the filter is down there is really no way to circulate the water.

I am truely sick to my stomach :( over this whole ordeal and would hate to loose all of my beautiful fish. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Sincerely,
Claudette

Ah claud you seem sooo sad. I am in Cent ohio just a small pond with 5 fish 3 Koi Shub and a comet. Not sure what your temps are but my guys do swim around even in the cold I have field tile in the bottom for them to hide and they do but I catch them swimming a lot even with ice on it. calling at them makes them come out if they are not exploring. Do you have a heater thing to keep a hole in the ice?

I wish I could help you on the PH but Robyn can she will be on later. Could there be anything leaching into your pond run off or something that may cause a spike? have you checked you other water levels?

I am not sure what an aquascape is but it sounds roomy.

I hope things get better for ya. Keep us posted this is a great forum we all chat all the time and some great advice on here too.

C2

I wouldn't want to adjust the ph at any time of the year let alone winter when it could stress the fish more. Once you start adjusting ph in a big pond it is very expensive and then there is no end to it.
I would be more concerned about ammonia. Have you tested that yet?
I find the best way to maintain good water quality through the winter is by doing frequent small water changes. I add about 300 gl of well water to my 4500 gl pond about once a week
Let us know how you make out.
Good luck. Wayne

Hi Wayne,
I did test all the water parameters and everything looks good. No Amonia, or Nitrites. The only thing that concerned me was that the PH was higher then usual and that the fish were so active.

I thought Koi go into a torpor during the winter months and thought that they slept during the coldest part of the winter. I could not believe what I was seeing when I saw the two Koi in 2.5 feet of water.

I am concerned that they may be sick and that is why they moved to shallow water. I would really hate to loose them. They dashed off fairly quickly so I was not able to inspect them for fungus, etc.

I think I agree that I should not try to adjust the PH at this point in time. I do not feel comfortable doing so while the pond water is not being circulated. I figured I would post and see what other Koi keepers opinions where.

I have not done water changes since I have to rely on city water and the ph coming out of the tap is at 9.0, which would make the PH even higher at this point. I think I have no choice but to wait until spring to fix any problems. :(

Since I am so new to Koi keeping, I greatly value seasoned Koi keeper's opinions on what I should and should not do.

Thanks for responding.

Sincerely,
Claudette

My pond water is 37 degrees and I see my koi, orfes and goldfish at all levels from 4ft to the surface
Hope this is some comfort.

Hi Wayne,
Yes, it is some comfort to know that Koi do swim in water at 37 degrees. I did not know that. I thought that they remained at the bottom of the bottom where the water is warmer.

When I saw them swimming around I thought maybe they were sick and that is why they were moving around so much.

I think I may need to buy a new thermoeter (even though this one is brand new) since it was reading about 32 degrees when I looked at it yesterday. I have it placed right next to the aerator (close to where the fish were) so it does not freeze in the ice. That was one more reason why I was concerned about the fish. I read that they are not comfortable beyond 35 degrees.

I will continue to keep an eye on the Koi weekly until spring, which can not come soon enough for me this year. Owning a Koi pond is more stressful then I ever thought it could be.

Have a great day!

Claudette

Welcome to the forum Claudette! I think we're all a little overprotective of our fish at times! I have a 1800 gallon pond with two koi. My koi mostly stay in the deep end in the winter but the goldfish especially (but also orfe and sometimes the koi) will go into the shallows, often under the ice when it's frozen. I worry about them freezing in. When I went to a koi party on 12/1/07, that koi pond was maybe 40 degrees F, and the koi were huge and expensive and swimming at all levels, very actively in that pond which was 7 feet deep I think. So, I wouldn't worry about your koi swimming in the shallows as far as their health. My only concern about shallow swimming is that then predators can more easily get them. If it's iced over, that's irrelevant. At 2.5 feet deep, your "shallow" end is deeper than my "deep" end which is 26"!

As for the pH, a pH of 9.0 is really too high long term but the fish may have to deal with it until spring. I would NOT suggest trying to alter the pH when the pond has no circulation. Does the pond have some aeration or at least a de-icer for the winter? My page on winterizing is at http://www.fishpondinfo.com/winter.htm
If your tap water is at a pH of 9.0, a water change isn't going to help. That's a high pH for source water. Yet, you say the pH used to be 7.5? It's much easier to increase the pH than to lower it. Some natural processes such as plant cycles can alter the pH in the pond during the summer. Rain and snow will also lower the pH. I would check your hardness and alkalinity in the pond and from the tap. If the pH is 9.0, they are probably high as well. The easiest way in the summer to lower the pH is to do water changes if your pH weren't high which it is. The second easiest way is to add pH down which is sulfuric acid. You have to be careful. A large pH change is more problematic for fish than a stable too-high pH. Once your pond is melted out and the water flowing again, aim to get your pH to 8.0 if you can. [If it's in the 7's, that's fine too.]

As for the one koi that did die, it's pretty common to lose a fish here and there, especially in the winter. I hope it was just an isolated incidence.

To meet up (on-line or in person) with some "seasoned" koi keepers, try these sites:
http://www.koivet.com
http://www.makc.com/

Good luck!

Hi Robyn,
Thank you for your response, and it is a pleasure to be on board with everyone! I do not have many Koi friends, so it is really nice to be able to talk to other Koi keepers, who can relate to what I am going through and offer advice on what could be going on with pond and Koi. Boy, I never thought I could get so attached to these little guys...they really do grow on you. It is wonderful to interact with them in the summer. Winter really stinks now that I have the pond. I miss watching and feeding those little guys.

As far as my PH goes, it was at 7.5 for most of the summer. It was really high last spring, it came in at about 9.0 for April and May. I did have a big alage bloom which I think is what threw the PH reading out of whack. Once I purchased a UV sterilizer and adding PH down, I was able to bring the PH back down to 7.5. We have had quite a bit of rain this winter and that may have contributed to the rise from 7.5 to 9.0. I will continue to monitor the PH weekly until spring.

I am happy to hear that you all have fish that swim around in the winter. I thought that fish had to be dead still in order to make it to spring. I was under the impression that if they move around too much, chances were that they would not make it through the winter.

Robyn, the one fish that died did have some sort of fungus growing on it. It was a fairly large Koi as well. I thought for sure that if I lost one it would be one of the smaller Koi. The fungus that was growing on her was cottony in appearance. Her skin also had some red patches. I am concerned that whatever she had, the others may be infected too. A few days prior to her death, I remember telling my husband that I did not think it was normal for her to be swimming around so much, that she should have been at the bottom of the pond. Several days later I found her floating at the edge of the pond. I tried to save her but she died a few days later :(

Have you ever experience that with any of your fish? I am hoping that it was an isolated incident and that the rest of the Koi will be fine. Once spring rolls around I think I should treat with Proform C and maybe so Fluke tabs. What do you think ?

Again, I am happy to be on board with all of you. Thank you for getting back to me, I really apprecaite any advice you can give me.

Sincerely,
Claudette

It sounds like that koi did have fungus. Fungus often does well and can overtake a fish when it's cooler. Most funguses are ubiquitous to the pond which means they're always there. It normally attacks after a fish is weakened, often through a physical injury such as a cut in the side. So, it's likely that the other fish will be ok. Fungus can be naturally treated with pond salt (0.1% if there are no plants, 0.05% if there are) and PimaFix by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. I'm not big on using toxic chemicals. They can sometimes do more harm than good.

So, it sounds like with tap water at a pH of 9, that's the "normal" pH for your pond. It was lower in the warm months because you added pH down, and it maybe rained more (rain lowers the pH).

How long has it been since the koi died? If it's been at least a few weeks, and the other fish seem okay, hopefully they will come through winter just fine.

I did add extra salt when I found the floating Koi. My pond was just below 1% and I increased the salt level to 1.5%. My goal is to get it to 2%. Do you think that is too much? Since it is winter I do not have to worry about plants. I will be vacuuming the pond bottom in the spring and doing a 25% water change so that should lower the salt level again so that I can add plants again.

As far as PH goes, I get confused as to what increases it, or lowers it. I thought that rain increases your PH levels in a pond but you stated that the rain actually lowers the PH in a pond. I did notice that my water turned a bit green when I increased the salt level. Maybe it was alage die off that increased the PH? I am just trying to figure out what would cause the PH to go up in such a high volume of water. My pond holds close to 8000 gallons.

It will be three weeks this week since my beautiful Koi, Angel, died. I did not know if the fungus she had would consume all of my fish and that is why I have been keeping a close watch on the pond. I have seen a few fish swimming around but none seem to be sick. I am keeping my fingers crossed. They have two more months to go before I start up the pond again. I am so very anxious to do so. I hope they all make it to spring. I have quite a few large ones in there. Several are at least 18 inches long. They were fed Sho Koi all summer and I hear that is the best food you can feed them. It is suppose to boost the immune system. Hope it's true.

Since you recommended the Pimafix, do you not care for the Proform C and Fluke tabs? I would much prefer to stay away from the harsh chemicals as well. I did use some chemicals last spring when I had the alage bloom and all of my fish had reactions to the chemicals. I finally broke down and got the UV Sterlizer. Aside from the salt, I did not put any further chemicals in the pond for the rest of the season and the Koi seemed much happier and healthier. I was going to use the Proform C because someone suggested that I use it. I have never used it before.

There are so many articles and chemicals out there, I find it difficult to make a decision with all these choices.

Yes, I think you have too much salt. I suggest 0.1% for most ponds without plants, 0.05% with plants. Koi experts say you can have up to 0.2% or 0.3% for treatment. Some may do it a little higher. You have 10 times how much salt that you need. It may be enough to be harming the fish. I looked on-line but can't find any data on what concentration of salt becomes harmful for koi/fish.

Pure rain is distilled water with no buffering capacity and an unreadable theoretical pH of 7.0. Since 7.0 is lower than your tap water's pH of 9.0, rain should lower the pH. Sometimes we can get acid rain with hydrogen sulfide in the rain. In that case, it would lower the pH even further. Since rain has no minerals, salts, etc., then the pH will also swing more in a pond that was hard that is diluted with rain water.

Salt will certainly kill algae as does really cold water. Algae like other plants will cause some pH swings in the pond during their daily processes. When algae dies, the pH may go up or down; there are too many variables for a simple answer.

I have not used any toxic chemicals in my 1800 gallon pond in its almost 11 years of existence. I've used some in my aquariums but what usually happens is the fish don't improve but the snails die. I've never bought Proform C but did use fluke tabs in my aquarium (killed all the snails; didn't help the fish).

Proform C has formalin which is pretty strong and nasty stuff. It will kill off most parasites.
See http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articl...erm=Proform%20C
We don't know though that your fish have parasites just perhaps a fungal problem for that one fish. I suggest having someone from your local koi club come out and check your fish. They can put scrapings of the fish under a microscope to pick up most parasites. It's really not a good idea to treat for parasites if the fish don't have them.

Hi Robyn,
I'm sorry, I wrote that number down wrong for the salt level in the pond. I mean't to write 0.15%. I was actually hoping to get it to 0.2%, but I think I will leave it alone. 0.15% should be fine until spring. Also, the only thing I have running in the pond right now is an aerator. It creates quite a bit of turbulence at the surface so I am hoping that the salt that I added is getting distrubed to where the fish are resting. About half of the pond is frozen so I have been adding the salt next to the aerator. You must have been shocked at what you were reading when you saw 1.5%. I would imagine that that would kill the fish. LOL. Can you tell I am still a novice! I should learn to write down my readings correctly.

In regards to treating with chemicals, the reason I was planning on treating for parasites is because I was told that if the fish that died had a fungus, chances were that all the fish had a fungus and that my pond was probably very dirty and full of parasites, that I should be ready to treat all in the spring. This was a local water garden place here in Connecticut that I called when I found the sick fish. They are also not very big fans of aquascape ponds, and hate rock bottom ponds.

I don't care to add chemicals, but at the same time I do not want the fish to be parasite ridden either. I am not aware of any Koi clubs here in Connecticut. I suppose I should do my homework and find out. The other thing is, in order to get the scrapping, I would first have to catch the fish. I think that would be a nightmare with the rock bottom. I think a lot of the Koi would get injured fleeing from the net. Do you have any suggestiions as to how to catch them. Maybe at night when it is dark, using a flashlight?

In regards to your pond, do you have a rock bottom? I can not believe that in the past 11 years you have not used any chemicals in your pond. That is awesome! How do you keep your water so clean and your fish so healthy? I hope as time goes on, I can be as succesful at caring for my pond and fish as well as you have for the past 11 years.

Have a good night! and thanks for all your advice, I greatly value your opinion.

I'm glad it wasn't 2% salt! I thought maybe you wanted a saltwater pond (some people actually have those).

It's sort of ridiculous to say that because one fish had fungus, the pond must be filthy and full of parasites. First, fungus is always in most ponds at some level. It only usually becomes a problem if a fish has an injury where the fungus can get a hold. Second, just because a pond has fungus, doesn't mean it's dirty. Third, dirty ponds don't necessarily have a ton of parasites. It's like saying a human child must have head lice if they have some dirt on their face. Your pond probably has some parasites, most ponds do. Most of the time, those parasites stay at low levels and don't cause problems, some are in fact rather harmless. Treating the pond for parasites may not help if the parasite that the pond has is one that's not killed by that particular toxin. There are many parasites. That's why I suggest having an actual parasite diagnosed. I also suggest quaranting new fish and perhaps treating them with a generic parasite killer. If you never did that with your fish, you can try in your pond but keep a few things in mind. Parasitic medications are usually toxic to weak fish, tender fish (like orfe), snails, shrimp, daphnia, other pond microorganisms, sometimes algae, and sometimes good bacteria. Beyond worrying about who you might kill off, if a lot of animals or plants die, then there may be spikes in ammonia, low oxygen, pH swings, etc. Also, if the good bacteria die, the ammonia and/or nitrite will go very high. So, it's important to monitor ammonia and nitrite when using a parasitic medication. They also lower oxygen levels in the pond so aeration is vital. I would not suggest using parasitic medications during the hottest times of the year as the oxygen may drop to deadly levels.

Here is a pond club in Northern Conn.:
http://www.pioneervalleypondclub.com/

To catch large koi, buy a koi sock (long net). They basically swim into it, and you wrap them up. To catch a lot of smaller fish, use a kick sceine (spelled wrong?). I was looking how to spell it and found one of my previous answers on how to catch small goldfish:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Pond-Water-Gard...y-gold-fish.htm
For individual small koi, I would just get a big net and stalk them. Move slowly until you net and then you move fast. My pond fish swim up to me a lot so I don't think I'd have much trouble catching at least the sick ones. I don't have to catch my fish often. I had to catch my huge koi when she got stuck in the feeding ring. Luckily, I got her immediately as she was right where I got into the water. Boy, did she thrash though until I cut the line she was tangled in.

My pond has pea gravel in the shallow marginal area. The fish and gravity work it down into the deep end so for all intense and purposes, my pond has a gravel bottom. I net some rocks and toss them back up to the shallows but more always come into the deep end. Since I have no help and little time, I have never been able to do a full cleaning on my pond (no major water changes or gravel cleanings) since it was made in May 1997. I have netted the bottom hundreds of times though and otherwise gathered debris. We're on a well so I rarely do water changes but use a lot of water to keep the pond topped off.

The only chemical things I've ever put in my pond are BZT (good bacteria and enzymes), pond salt, Stress-Zyme, Stress-Coat, MelaFix, heavy metal deactivator (a different dechlorinator), Microbe-Lift, barley straw, occasional Ammocarb (zeolite and activated carbon) in a mesh bag in the filter, and rarely in the past I've used pH down (sulfuric acid) and AccuClear (a polymer coagulant). I think I did buy some parasitic pond medication years ago but I don't think I actually used it. I quarantine new fish and treat most of them with Aquari-Sol (copper sulfate) which kills many but not all parasites. As far as my pond goes, since 1999 I think I've added just one shubunkin in maybe 2005 and three new baby orfe in 2007. The other fish are all decendants or original fish. Basically, the keys for me have been to not add a lot of new animals (I do add snails every year; the raccoons keep eating them) or chemicals.

Hi Robyn,
No, I do not want to own a saltwater pond, but I am curious as to what people put in them. What type of fish would they keep in one of those? They must not be very pretty since no plants would survive the salt content.

I am very relieved to know that even though a pond can be dirty, it does not mean that it is parasite ridden. I was visualizing these little monsters swimming around in my pond, attacking all of my Koi while they are at their weakest. I truley believed that I would probably not have one Koi left alive come spring. Thank you for your explanation regarding parasites. I could not imagine that any pond out there was parasite free. One thing I do plan on doing though is making sure that I vacuum the pond at least twice a year. Once in the spring and then again in the fall. That should help with the water quality. This past fall I used Microb Life PL, sludge away and thought that it would suffice in disolving the sludge between the rocks. I really should have vacuum the pond before winter set in. When I saw the floating fish, I was sick to my stomach and mad at myself for not cleaning the bottom. But now that I think of it, it would make sense as you said that the fish was probably already sick prior to winter setting in, and I just never noticed it.

As far as treatments go, I do not plan on making it a habit to treat the pond with chemicals every time something goes wrong. Last spring, that is exactly what I did, and I ended up torturing my poor fish from March through April. I was treating for things I wasn't evern sure the fish had. A few acted and swam funny, I thought for sure I would loose them but they pulled through. Now I know it was the chemicals that I used. You are absolutely correct in that I should only treat if I am sure what is actually ailing my fish. The only place I could rely on for advise was the garden center and the internet. The garden center was willing to sell me everything under the sun since they were making so much money off of me. The internet can be very scary since the opinions very so much. I was quickly overwhelmed and confused. I feel very comfortable in taking your advice. You have had great success with your pond with the minimal use of chemicals. That is diffently the route I prefer to take. I will only use chemicals if I really need to.

I think most of my problems last spring were due to the fact that I purchased 7 new fish. One of them died within a month of buying and the other was the one I just lost a few weeks ago. None of the ones I bought when my husband and I originally built the pond died. They were small when we purchased them but have grown quite a bit in the last year. They are also the healthiest. I do not plan on adding any new fish ever. I do not have the means to quarantine and I do not want to introduce any sick Koi that could wipe out my collection. I have learned my lesson. I will take care of the ones I currently have. I do not think my pond could handle a higher fish load anyway. I am not sure but my pond may even be overstocked. I did catch quite a few baby Sarassa Comets in the fall. I managed to capture 8 of them and they currently reside in a 50 gallong tank in our basement. They are very healthy and quite beautiful. Not sure what I will do with them when they outgrow the tank though. I would hate to part with any of them. What do you do with your babies? I am sure I will have this problem every year when they spawn. :-)

Thank you for the Koi club website. I did check it out earlier tonight and really enjoyed it. It will be nice to know that I have a resource here in Connecticut. Thank you for the advice on the Koi sock as well. Next month I plan on getting an order together for supplies that I will need come spring and it will definitely be on my list of things to get.

I will continue to visit your website for valuable pond information. I appreciate the time you took to help set my mind at ease. I will keep you posted on any further developments.

When I have a moment I will try to post some pictures of my pond on your forum. It really is a beautiful pond. We put a lot of hard work into making it look good and comfortable for our fish.

Hi Claudette,
They probably will spawn every year, and there will be lots of eggs and fry.
But if your pond is well stocked, as you say it is, then there won't be too many babies at all to worry about. Most, if not all, will be eaten by the adults.
Sounds like you've got a fairly large pond, so you may get a couple of new ones here and there annually.

Looking forward to seeing the pictures! :)

I've only heard of saltwater ponds being kept near to the actual ocean where the water is connected to the ocean. An inland saltwater pond would be very hard to maintain because of both rain and evaporation which would keep changing the salinity. They keep corals and small marine fish in saltwater ponds. I know there's a few attached to some marine fish public aquariums.

I have never removed any fish from my ponds. They do have babies every year but most are eaten as eggs or young fry. They are eaten by their parents and my other fish. Older fry and adult fish are eaten by raccoons, herons, and other predators that visit my pond pretty often. So, my pond has never been overstocked long term but sometimes in the short term. Something always comes along and nature balances things out. That's little comfort when say my oldest goldfish vanishes presumably eaten by the heron a few years back.

I am really glad to hear that, I am the type that can not bare to let go of pets, or material things. I really get attached to my possessions! :P I can not imagine anyone taking better care of them then myself.

Anyhow, If I do have a few that make it here and there, I can live with that. I do not think they will be Koi though. When we first started up the pond, we purchased 7 Koi and 3 Sarassa Comets, last spring I purchased some additional Koi and now have 14 Koi and so far all of my fry have been Comets. This may be a silly questions but, do the eggs float to the surface after spawing? I do not remember seeing any last spring. I am usually good at spotting things out of the ordinary...I totally missed it! Also, how old do fish have to be before they start spawing. Most of my fish are under 3 years of age, including those Comets.

As soon as I figure out how to post my pond pictures I will put them on the board for everyone to see.

Thanks for your reply on what to do with babies!

Koi keepers will tell you that if you have goldfish with your koi, you will never have koi babies. Goldfish are really good at eating fish eggs and fry and yet usually manage to miss a few of their own. I only have two koi but I think they are male and female. I've never had any baby koi.

Both koi and goldfish eggs will sink and stick to whatever is around. They shouldn't float unless they get caught up in air bubbles.

Goldfish can spawn when about 3 inches long which may take two or three years although some people have said they've had year old goldfish spawn. Koi must be larger to spawn, at least half a foot long normally. You won't get a good koi spawn until the fish are over a foot. That may take 5 years.

This summer, I could just scoop out a bucket of water with some weed in it and let it sit for a day and I would have babies swimming everywhere. I never did see any eggs, but I swear all I had to do was get a bucket and they would hatch. The neighbourhood kids went crazy when I showed them. At first I was having a great time with it, then when I realized I had thousands and thousands of babies, reality hit that I couldn't save them all. Then it went to eat the babies, eat the babies.....then when I transfered all the big fish into the new pond, the babies kept hatching in the other pond and by the time winter came there were thousands and I mean thousands of 2-3 inch goldfish in there, which we know are frozen now :-( I am so HORRIFIED that I want to spay and neuter all my fish! I do have 20 babies in the house, and I put all I could into the new pond. It is just heartbreaking at times :-(

I know what you mean...When I first saw babies in the pond, I was all excited, then I realized that there were more and more and I went from being overly excited to "Oh My God" what am I going to do with all these babies. My pond would never sustain the fish load. So I started saying to myself "gee I hope they eat the babies" It sounds awful but I do not have the heart to give them away or destroy them. The best thing would be for the eggs to get eaten before we even have babies! I hope I do not get too many this coming spring. I have an awful feeling that the babies I saw this fall are going to make it through winter. I saw some swimming around a few days ago. :-( I really was hoping that they would not make it. The Comets are a pretty hardy fish. Had I know how quickly they populate, I would have purchased only females, or males, not both!

Sorry I have not posted any pictures yet, can't seem to be able to figure out how to get the pictures onto the forum. :(