I'm thinking of enclosing in an area of my propery (30' x 40') with a not-yet determined type of fence. In this area, I shall have a garden, my pond, and all together: a terristrail sanctuary. I will fence in wood frogs, pickerel frogs, and green frogs within. So, I need to know:

1. How high the fence should be, so that I can prevent leap-excapes over the fence; the conservative minimum, as i dont want to have it any higher then likely necessary.

2. What type if mesh i can get that will have very small (1 cm?) holes whilst having a high level of
rust resistance?

Can you recommend a type (aluminum), brand, or any suggestions?

This will also keep out a lot of leaves, a few predators (skunks?) and it would be interesting to know that those frogs will be all there, representing (in modest numbers) various varieties.

I would fence in the entire yard, but i fear that i would harm some in the lawn mower and im not getting rid of my lawn.

Please let me know what you think of question 1 (height) and question 2 (type, metal, ideas). Thank's Robyn.


-steven

Frogs tend to find ways out! You'll have to be sure the mesh is small in size, doesn't get holes in it, and is buried half a foot into the ground (in case other animals dig a hole under it). For height, most frogs can't jump higher than a few feet. For safe measure, make the fence at least 3' high. This also will keep out some predators. If you can only do a 2' high fence, that should keep in many frogs.

I don't know what fencing you could get or where that would give the small hole size and resistance to degredation that you would need. Something like vinyl coated hardware cloth (we call it rabbit wire) would work if it was tall enough but it is very expensive. Vinyl coated wire lasts longer than naked wire.

how about using that exceedingly strong, then bird netting?


i couldnt even pull it apart - needed scissors - how can make a frame - will the bird netting work?

steve

If the holes are the size to keep in the size frogs you want to retain, then that should work. You'd have to attach it to some sort of staking or frame system. I know what you mean about being tough. There's some "bird netting" that is pathetic (really like pond leaf netting) but we have some thick stuff that we can barely cut with scissors. When pulling it out of the ground (it was used to cage a plant to protect it from deer and anchored with sod staples) though, it would often rip.

it might be unstable - in making it look nice and not loosening up in time away from poles - how about chicken wire or something that is hard and wont degrade

Chicken wire will only keep in the bigger frogs. Also, I've used it for plant cages and the chicken run, and it rusts out in just a few years. I still think PVC coated hardware cloth (rabbit fence) would work the best (but be expensive).

robyn,

will aluminum fence mesh not rust?

It doesn't rust like iron and steel but read this discussion I found going into more detail. Aluminum does "rust" which by definition is oxidation or the production of aluminum oxides. They are talking about bicycle frames but aluminum is aluminum!

http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=39272

i still think no ordinary wood, pickerel, or green frog can leap over a 28" fence............ what do you think

Most frogs can't jump over a 28" fence.

do you think that i need to release the toads and pickerel frogs as tadpoles to get them to stay. i think i can skip the fence, so long as the majority of the pickerels return to hibrinate.

When amphibians are raised as tadpoles in a pond and morph out of there, they are more likely to remain at or near that pond. Putting adult frogs at a pond will often result in them running off.

very interesting - then i wont have a fence - i hope i can find studies on this

when i read on certain websites that leopard frogs can jump 3 feet...this in relation, mostly - where written of, to escaping from predators


does this likely mean in terms of latititude?



if the frog jumps 3 feet to escape predators, can it jump but less then 3 feet in jumping over a fence -

in other words: does a frog jump more distance long or high?

A frog can move further horizontally in a bound than vertically. A frog that can jump 3 feet horizontally can probably jump only a few feet vertically.

The following is a more focused review of the reasons for installing a fence to fence in frogs in a city evironment, such as I live in, and i wanted to run some ideas by you as to how I would build it.

Part I: Reasons for building a fence around a yard containing frog-populated pond.

1. Keeps the frogs from wandering, inadvertantly, from the property where no fresh-water [...hydration, breeding, and ultimately: hibrination] can be found for miles - or separated by avenues and infrastructure.

2. Keeps the frogs out of chlorinated in-ground swimming pools.

3. Keeps the frogs in the yard, fenced in, tereby limiting encouters with cats.

4. Keeps the frogs off of neighboring lawns and gardens treated with pesticides, and off of pavements and such coated with oil and exhaust residues.

Theses are all VERY relevant and real consequences to frogs leaving a pond located in a city, and not being surrounded by wooded, natural outlets and freshwater, unpoluted water sources. To what gain is it that a frogs be given extra land to find food on and feel[?] less constricted, if it is hopping all over pesticide treated turfs, being manually watered with chlorinated lawn sprinklers, and so return back to the pond [if it ever does] as a chemical sponge - releasing chems into the pond, unpon return, and producing deformed tadpoles in spring.

Since people have no brains and decide its a good idea to use pesticides, and the rest of the reasons, I feel that the right thing to do with raising frogs in a city environement is to completely fence in the yard and limit the amount of frogs enclosed in the property. Again, not everyone has to worry about this - if the frogs they have can be found, locally, near by - so that there is not moral problem with the frogs escaping and finding a water source to which they are indiginous.

Part II: Fencing in the entire yard.

Since my entire yard of appox. 65 x 90 will need to, lawfully, be enclosed in a standard chain link fence, 3/4 of the yard already enclosed by fences, my house, and a wall, i'll need to just fence in 1/4 more of the yard.

Since the chain link fence provides a firm frame, I can simply apply bird netting or chicken wire to bottom most 3 feet; the holes will be 1 centimeter and the netting will start as a right angle from the ground and having the bottom fastened down with a rock covered pvc pipe so that the frogs would not be able to dig under the fence.

Although frogs can climb, i am predicting this is a rarity for the typical frog and that they would simply be retained by the fence. If this becomes a problem, I can simply fasten another parallel pvc pipe to the fence laterally midway so that they cannot climb further, unless they are spiderman frogs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Considerations:

1. Since newly hatched toadlets are, perhaps, able to get through the 1 centimeter holes in the mesh, I would apply an extra layer of small holed mesh or even a smaller holed form of mesh to the bottom 10" of the fence. I figure that the little guys can ONLY seek to escape through the bottom 10" of the fence, and any land frog large enough to hop higher then 10" is already larger then 1 centimenter and cannot get through the 1 centimeter holes that are between the 11th inch and the top of the mesh fence that is securely fastened to the chainlink fence. Any little toadlets that escape will be too large to slip back into the pond when they are sexually mature and ready to breed; most other frogs are going to be too large when they metamorph to escape.

Does this sound like a good enough solution?

2. Do you think that the common, black, very very sturdy, plastic bird netting is basically permanent - or will it get brittle? I'm going to have to use this for about 140 feet length of fence/@3 feet height - so i cant go too expensive, nor do i want it to be temporary.

Yes, those are all reasons one might fence in frogs in their pond.

"Since people have no brains"

Most of them anyway :-)

"Since the chain link fence provides a firm frame, I can simply apply bird netting or chicken wire to bottom most 3 feet; the holes will be 1 centimeter and the netting will start as a right angle from the ground and having the bottom fastened down with a rock covered pvc pipe so that the frogs would not be able to dig under the fence."

That could work. Just keep an eye on the netting that it doesn't get torn, moved, or degraded over time.

"Although frogs can climb, i am predicting this is a rarity for the typical frog and that they would simply be retained by the fence. If this becomes a problem, I can simply fasten another parallel pvc pipe to the fence laterally midway so that they cannot climb further, unless they are spiderman frogs."

Tree frogs climb (like spider man!) but the others probably not.

"1. Since newly hatched toadlets are, perhaps, able to get through the 1 centimeter holes in the mesh, I would apply an extra layer of small holed mesh or even a smaller holed form of mesh to the bottom 10" of the fence. I figure that the little guys can ONLY seek to escape through the bottom 10" of the fence, and any land frog large enough to hop higher then 10" is already larger then 1 centimenter and cannot get through the 1 centimeter holes that are between the 11th inch and the top of the mesh fence that is securely fastened to the chainlink fence. Any little toadlets that escape will be too large to slip back into the pond when they are sexually mature and ready to breed; most other frogs are going to be too large when they metamorph to escape."

Newly morphed toads are very small. I don't think you can reasonably contain them. You may not want to if you have a ton of them. I assume you are going to bring them in as tadpoles or adults from elsewhere. You'd be surprised how many amphibians there are even in a city. One advantage of not netting the yard is you let in those beleagered travelers.

"Does this sound like a good enough solution?"

I guess.

"2. Do you think that the common, black, very very sturdy, plastic bird netting is basically permanent - or will it get brittle? I'm going to have to use this for about 140 feet length of fence/@3 feet height - so i cant go too expensive, nor do i want it to be temporary."

It may fall apart over time, especially if animals or people contact or move it over time. I've used it sometimes over plants, and sometimes it rips but that's when I'm trying to move it. If the bird netting is just plastic, it should last a long time if it's just sitting there.

1. I dont think that there are any frogs in my town; the creek has been barren for years - i scoured it for years not finding anything but minnows and eels.

2. I read that cricket frogs are tree frogs that are unable to climb - you feel they still will climb out :( i hope not; if they do, maybe they will climb back in to breed and stay in the area.

3. The bird netting im thinking of, i cannot tare apart if i tried my hardest with both hands - would you think it might last about 15 years?

4. If there are, in fact, frogs in the neighborhood, they and escape frogs can get back in: one of the four sides of the yard is an elevated neigbors back yard - from there, they can just jump into my yard; in fact, his yard is densely overrun with brushes and trees and looks like a 60 x 40 forrest sample.

5. i think ive seen metalic mesh with holes smaller then a toadlet.

6. They say that a Leopard frog can jump 13 times its length [5 inches]; from this formulae, do you think it can leap over a 36" fence? i wish i could find a site, yet, that would give statistics on frog leaps interms of horizone and verticle.

"I read that cricket frogs are tree frogs that are unable to climb - you feel they still will climb out i hope not; if they do, maybe they will climb back in to breed and stay in the area."

Hum, I don't know for sure. I've not studied cricket frogs since we don't have them here. You'd think a tree frog could climb. I thought their discerning feature was the suction-cuped feet.

"3. The bird netting im thinking of, i cannot tare apart if i tried my hardest with both hands - would you think it might last about 15 years?"

Probably as long as it mostly just sat there.

"4. If there are, in fact, frogs in the neighborhood, they and escape frogs can get back in: one of the four sides of the yard is an elevated neigbors back yard - from there, they can just jump into my yard; in fact, his yard is densely overrun with brushes and trees and looks like a 60 x 40 forrest sample."

It would be interesting to see if that (frogs from outside coming in) happens.

"5. i think ive seen metalic mesh with holes smaller then a toadlet."

I'm sure there is some but the smaller the holes, the higher the cost.

"6. They say that a Leopard frog can jump 13 times its length [5 inches]; from this formulae, do you think it can leap over a 36" fence? i wish i could find a site, yet, that would give statistics on frog leaps interms of horizone and verticle. "

That's a length leap, not a vertical leap. I'm guessing that the average leopard frog wouldn't jump more than say 1.5' up, maybe a little more if it's a running leap. A 3' high fence should retain most frogs.