Robyn,

as you have, to my obsessive knowledge, the most thorough web site concerning certain pond issues SUCH AS PLANTS, i consulted your sight concerning hardy lily depth and i did not like what i found. i was hoping you would say that i can keep them having up to around 3 feet or 2.5 above the crown.


this is the problem:

alot of ponders keep warning me not to build my pond next year: 14 x 14 at 2 feet of depth, but rather 12 x 12 at 3 feet of depth; instead, I will compromise and have it 13 x 13 at 30" depth. But, I really want to cover the "deep" 2.5 foot deep end with hardy lilies. If you say this is not possible, i shall just make the 18" section wider so that i can plant lilies at the edge center-bound so that the pads will hopefully reach out to cover some of the deeper end's surface - or maybe its just a good opportunity to plant oxygenators that will not need to compete for sunlight with lily pads.

Please, keep in my that I will NOT BE ABLE TO LOWER the lilies from depth to depth to depth because I am going to be installing plant pockets - when i fill the pond, my lilies will be planted. Therefore, that brings the issue of this: anually, can i restart dormant mature lily tubers in 18" water above the crown? can i restart dorman pickerel rush in 18" water, also?

Water lilies are pretty forgiving about depth. When they're just starting, especially new plants, they do better at first if kept shallow, maybe a foot over the crown. This allows more sun to reach the plant and lets the plant put up the leaves with less effort (since there's less distance to go). Once established, the stronger, larger water lilies (especially the native hardies and tropical plants) can grow in water 2-3 feet deep. Just look at any natural pond with water lilies, and you'll see they go at to at least that depth. The plants that are farthest out have to work harder to get their leaves to the surface. In ponds that aren't clear, it may be hard on the lilies to get those first leaves up. They need the sunlight at the pot level to entice the leaves up and provide sunlight for the first and winter leaves. These first leaves and more so winter leaves never go to the surface but rather grow in a tight group of small leaves at the pot level. My water lilies retain these leaves over winter but drop the ones at the surface as they freeze and rot.

If your pond is clear, and you use strong varieties of water lilies, they should be ok growing at the depth you want to use. If they have trouble, you can put a few in small pots in the shallows for about a month until they have leafed out and then move them to the deep pockets. For those people not using pockets, they can elevate the pots, at least at first, off a deep bottom using a table made from milk crates, bricks, plastic containers, chimney flues, etc.

You can still include submerged plants down with the deep lilies. If the lilies do really well, the submerged plants may suffer some but should still grow if they're getting some light.

You should be able to start water lilies in 18" without a problem. I'm not sure about the pickerel. As I said, mine seems to be much happier when kept shallow. They would probably grow but be more spindly and perhaps smaller, at least at first.

It's funny you say my site is the most thorough about pond plants because plants aren't my forte!

Thanks, robyn.

1. but you have all those specifications concerning plants - names, depths, etc. a lot of good stuff. i keep it under my aol favorites list at the top - if you ever take the site down, please email me first so i can cut and paste it unto a word doc lol.



question:
2. i agree its harder for them and causes them to expend more energy to start off with 36" over the crown. are you speaking, however, of juvenile lilies or newly emerging dormant lilies that comes from a mature, aged tuber - i would think that a mature tuber wouldn't have all that much trouble if the water, as you say, is clear enough.

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3. as for the plant pocket issue: remember when i suggested putting pots in a hole that is is a little wider then the pot? then i said id puncture the pots and put rocks in between the pot sides and the surrounding plant pocket so that water will circulate - just thought how to make that more practical and so forth:

a. build a plant pocket and leave it empty
b. line the unpunctured lily pot with two layers of weedbarior cloth
c. fill the lined pot with enough soil, sand, then gravel just to fill most of the pot - BUT, leave a lot of room enough so that you can put large pebles all around the inner circumfrance of the pot - so that the soil will be surrounded by stones so that circulating water can enter the soil filled put via the sides - im sure people must have done this. i can waite till they grow, each year, until i lower them into their plant pockets.

"but you have all those specifications concerning plants - names, depths, etc. a lot of good stuff. i keep it under my aol favorites list at the top - if you ever take the site down, please email me first so i can cut and paste it unto a word doc lol."

When I used to have time (can't remember that!), I got most of that information from the various plant catalogs and some from personal experience. But, it wasn't all original. My site (and all others not locked) will forever exist in the internet archives. You can enter any site at http://www.archive.org and see the past versions. The older plant tables are also in my book.

"question:
2. i agree its harder for them and causes them to expend more energy to start off with 36" over the crown. are you speaking, however, of juvenile lilies or newly emerging dormant lilies that comes from a mature, aged tuber - i would think that a mature tuber wouldn't have all that much trouble if the water, as you say, is clear enough."

You're right in that the larger, older tubers will have less difficulty. I was mostly speaking of the ones you would buy to start your pond which in most cases would be the younger offshoots of older plants, making them "juvenile" as you say. It also depends on the variety of lily. Some are really tough while others are kind of weak. The dwarf varieties won't do well in deep water for example.

"a. build a plant pocket and leave it empty
b. line the unpunctured lily pot with two layers of weedbarior cloth
c. fill the lined pot with enough soil, sand, then gravel just to fill most of the pot - BUT, leave a lot of room enough so that you can put large pebles all around the inner circumfrance of the pot - so that the soil will be surrounded by stones so that circulating water can enter the soil filled put via the sides - im sure people must have done this. i can waite till they grow, each year, until i lower them into their plant pockets."

I assume you mean the pond plant pots that are full of holes? You would block the holes at the dirt level or try to get rocks to stay there? The small or large rocks have a tendency to migrate so if you tell them to stay on the sides, they may not oblige. I suggest trying your various ideas to see which works best for you.

Robyn, you asked:

"I assume you mean the pond plant pots that are full of holes? You would block the holes at the dirt level or try to get rocks to stay there? The small or large rocks have a tendency to migrate so if you tell them to stay on the sides, they may not oblige."

I must have said it very unclearly. Let me try again, anew:


1. take un-holed or holed trays or pots;

2. line them with weed-barior cloth;

3. fill the pot within the confines of the weed-barior cloth with 'some' soil;

4. place small stones directly BETWEEN the weedbarior-cloth fashioned sack of soil AND THE surrounding plastic pot/tray. In This way, the soil and stones around the circumfence of the unholed or holed pot or plant tray will not mix, so long as the weedbarior cloth holds the soil in its confines.

Oh, I get it. It sounds interesting. As I mentioned, the biggest problem would be getting the dirt, barrier, and rocks to cooperate to go where you want them and to stay there. If you can physically put that together, it should work well as long as the barrier works well (doesn't degrade; lets water through but keeps most dirt out).

'they' say, for large lilies, a 5 gallon pot is sufficient.

Would a masons tray, plastic, at 26 x 22 & at 6" depth be any less sufficient then a 5 gallon lily pot - the tray can hold up to 4 cu. feet...

i think someone said its barely big enough for a large lilly - i doubt that.

That tray should be large enough for most water lilies.