Robyn,

So far, the iris tubers, arrowhead bulbs, and two pickerel weed bulbs are doing well - very healthy, hanging out at the bottom of the pond (fastened down with bird netting); even though the pickerel bulbs darkened and look a bit unhealthy, in reality they may be healthy cause they are producing small green sprouts that seem to look foward to spring.


So, here's the experiment:

I took a pickerel plant bulb, 7 very healthy arrowhead bulbs, and two smaller flag iris and placed them all into a 18" long x 12" wide x 4" deep stainless steel tray - i filled the tray to the top with clear pond water (no soil and the roots have been thoroughly washed of debris and sediment).

I'm leaving the tray outside over the winter [New Jersey, Zone 5/6 type of winters].

I figure, since there is no insulation and so forth, that this experiment shall present conditions akin to the worst possible winter they can experience being left in the 6" deep margin of my pond. If they survive the winter freezes and thaws, then i will consider it a myth that one needs to overwinter hardy marginals like pickerel plant, arrowhead, and of course (as most agree already) iris in the deep end of the pond so that the root systems are not exposed to ice crystalization.

I did this last week with two arrowhead bulbs placed into a bird bath and frozen - they look fine now, but that was a brief freeze. Obviosly, in a garden pond, the duration of a solid freeze would be less in a 6" shallow margin then being placed into my non-ground insulated little tray o' plants at 4" of depth.

What is your guess on what will happen?

"1. Would the type of rock solid freeze (in ice) that the plants will experience in my freezer [with no insulation] be less intense then as if they were left in the 6" shallow margin of my pond."

It may in fact be worse for the plants in the freezer than in the pond. Most freezers are down around 10 degrees F. While a pond may get colder, the ice and snow insulate the pond somewhat, creating a blanket around the plants. Also, a pond would have more fluctuation in temperature than the freezer.

"Do you think i better leave them in a metal container with water outside, exposed to the elements to get accurate results?"

I guess you're trying to see if they can survive freezing solid? If so, it probably doesn't make much difference where they freeze but as I said, I think the overall average temperature in the freezer is probably lower than the average out in the pond. For example, here in MD, we had 7 degrees F a few nights in a row a few weeks ago but right now, it's in the 50's, and the ponds are now thawed again.

It's your experiment so try what you like!

as you were responding, i re-wrote my posting - caues i took em out of the freezer and put them in a tray out-doors - can you check out above

ty,

steve

Well, lets just see what will happen! I bet the iris might make it but not sure about the others.

Do you think that there is a genetic difference between a population of pickerel weed plant or arrowhead that grows in New Jersey/zone 6 then in a similar but different zone/state?

If so, then perhaps the web sites that warn not to allow pickerel or arrowhead to freeze solid are speaking from experience re: a strain of this plant that is typical of their warmer areas?


Maybe NJ found specimens are heartier then slightly or more southern varieties?

Yes, species have variation depending on where they are from. It could be possible that a more Southern strain would not survive in NJ over the winter but would to the south. A good amount of store-bought aquatic plants are raised in warmer states. So, the pickerels I get from Florida certainly may be less able to overwinter than one I might find growing wild here in MD.

well, they are in that tray i described - which i put in the ground - with the lip 1cm above ground leve - actually, only 3" deep.


if they survive, would you agree that we can forget about moving them out of the marginals in any winter?

Perhaps.

Which condition is more challenging unto the survival of native zone 6 marginals:

1. being placed on a pond shelf at 6" of depth and no snow insulation in a week of -5 F where there would probably be about 9-10" or being placed in an uninsulated plastic bag in the freezer?

[we've gotten around 6 f for only the last two days, and 20 f for the
two days before these following warm weather, and now i have exactly 3" of solid ice. this makes me think that, at some point, i might get 12"]


2. if sagitarius and pickerel plant root stocks will survive being frozen and thawed in a mere 3-4 inches of depth in that tray i have outside in 6 F, do you think that it matters whether they are frozen in there for few days as opposed to a full week or two?

i have a feeling that if i waite this freeze out, those tubers and bulbs in that 1'x'1, 3-4" shallow tray will survive.

but maybe its only because they will only be out there a few days... what do you think

3. if i place these into a freezer for a week, after they thaw naturally, and then have them thaw out naturally outside on a cold day after being placed in a freezer - if you were me, would you at that point rest in beleiving that i can: put all of my local-native arrowhead and pickerel plant on my 6" shallow shelf of my pond and leave them there all winter in my zone 6 winter, regardless of the exceptionally colder days that rarely but occasionally do come?

thanks,
st

read previous reply - this one was a mistake.... t/y

"Which condition is more challenging unto the survival of native zone 6 marginals:

1. being placed on a pond shelf at 6" of depth and no snow insulation in a week of -5 F where there would probably be about 9-10" or being placed in an uninsulated plastic bag in the freezer?"

I don't know. In the freezer, you know it's frozen. While 5 degrees F may be colder than some freezers, it's warmer down into the pond and with the surrounding body of unfrozen water and the ground.

"2. if sagitarius and pickerel plant root stocks will survive being frozen and thawed in a mere 3-4 inches of depth in that tray i have outside in 6 F, do you think that it matters whether they are frozen in there for few days as opposed to a full week or two?"

Longer freezings lead to more in depth freezings in that the ice gets even colder. While some plants might stand being encased in ice for say a day, they may not make it a week. But a few days versus a week is probably not that different.

"i have a feeling that if i waite this freeze out, those tubers and bulbs in that 1'x'1, 3-4" shallow tray will survive.
but maybe its only because they will only be out there a few days... what do you think"

If they survive in the tray situation which is more intense and colder, they should ok in the pond for longer periods.

"3. if i place these into a freezer for a week, after they thaw naturally, and then have them thaw out naturally outside on a cold day after being placed in a freezer - if you were me, would you at that point rest in beleiving that i can: put all of my local-native arrowhead and pickerel plant on my 6" shallow shelf of my pond and leave them there all winter in my zone 6 winter, regardless of the exceptionally colder days that rarely but occasionally do come?"

If the tubers that you put in the freezer and outside that were frozen and thawed a few times show signs of life in the spring, then they most likely could survive on the pond shelf. When you say 6" deep, do you take into account the height of the pots or are you putting them in there in gravel or loose? It would be a good idea to retain ~4" of water level over the crown (so you have to add pot depth if using those or gravel depth if using gravel, etc.).

i will use no soil - only pond water - i will have some rocks to hold em down and keep about 2-4" over them or 6" at most

errata:


the tray that i have outside with the root stocks is only 1.5" deep and maybe 1.75" if i fill it to the top.


its 8 f now, and this web site that tells me the temp. for my area says the low is to be -2 f, and currently, although it is 8 f, the wind chill keeps fluctuating from 3 to -5 degrees.


1. therefore, those roots are very frozen, being in a tray only 1.5" deep.

2. if the wind chill is -3, does that mean that, although its "8 f", the effect on the water/ice is as though it were -3 and not 8?
2a. at this rate, when it gets to -5 f, the wind chill factor will be incredibly cold.

3. i found out im zone 6b, if that tells you anything.

4. with my 500 gph pump broiling bellow the surface, i find that im able to keep a hole at all points this winter, even when it was around 3 f for a few days - no point in running an expensive to run 1250 watt deicer - however, do you think there is a down side to this? supercooling, you said no, i think. i could just put my airstone, in the future, right where the hole is being kept by the pump - maybe the current tires out fish?\

"2. if the wind chill is -3, does that mean that, although its "8 f", the effect on the water/ice is as though it were -3 and not 8?
2a. at this rate, when it gets to -5 f, the wind chill factor will be incredibly cold."

No, they would be at the actual temperature. The ice shields them from further temperature reduction (heat removal due to wind).

"4. with my 500 gph pump broiling bellow the surface, i find that im able to keep a hole at all points this winter, even when it was around 3 f for a few days - no point in running an expensive to run 1250 watt deicer - however, do you think there is a down side to this? supercooling, you said no, i think. i could just put my airstone, in the future, right where the hole is being kept by the pump - maybe the current tires out fish?"

If it works for you, then good. I have my big de-icer at the top of my waterfall. It's frozen in up there but is still working. The heat is drawn down the falls so it doesn't keep the ice above it open. Where the water spills in, there's still an opening, albeit getting smaller and smaller. While it's only 15 degrees F here (real warm huh?), I'm still petrified of the hole sealing up and pumping the pond out on top of the ice. We're supposed to get 45 mph winds tomorrow with a wind chill at zero. We got 6" of snow today. I have to dig out our 2000 some feet driveway myself since my father is incapitated following eye surgery. I'm going to use the plow on the mower for the first time. I'm already in so much pain today since I did my 12 hours of chores and cleared off a bunch of snow. I try to pretend the pond doesn't exist, just going out twice a day to pour hot water down the falls, bang my pond net (stick end, bad me ruining the thing) on the ice formations over the falls, and knock of some larger ones with a sledge hammer. In 8 winters, the falls haven't stop flowing so I try to ignore the anxiety! My 153 gallon pond has a de-icer and air pump, and it's half open since it's plenty warm there.

today, i extricated two hardy looking arrowhead bulbs from the ice - using a metal file. i greately damaged one, and the other was well intact. i placed them in pond water, without time to acclimate and placed them in my fridgerator. they've been frozen solid for about a month, plus a short spell in a bird bath before a brief thaw that allowed me to place them in the tray to be frozen solid for a month - the temps have been like: 6, 7, 2, 8, 28, 8, 10, -5, etc - with wind chill, the other day was -15.

lets see if they will sprout now that they are thawed - ill put em under a light tomorrow.

Yeah, I guess if they can take that, they can take anything!

i took them out of the refrigerator two days ago and put them in a clear cup by the window - they arent growing any green shoots - and look brown - i hope theyre not dead :(

It may take them some time. Also, in nature, the temperature warm up is more gradual so that may be a factor in whether or not they can survive.

today, i came home and discovered that two arrowhead bulbs and the one pickerel plant tuber that i had in that tray had naturally thawed out, and were in unfrozen water in the tray. i put them in a cup of pond water and am leaving them in that clear cup outside. so, lets see if those revive.

ill just keep them outside:

do you think i should bring them in when it gets about 55 f outside, or will 55 to 70 f
be to big of a difference?

I'm not sure what you mean. If they warm up and are alive, they would sprout. If your intent is to keep them very cold for testing purposes, and it gets warm outside, then you might bring them in to a refrigerator or keep them out to see if temperature fluctuations play a factor in survivability.

well, now that theyve been outside again, they dont seem rotten - they having sprouted

but: the pickerel root is less mushy, more dark again, and has still a green spring that had not rotted - maybe they are alive still, and being in the cold is better till they sprout, or they will rot inside

maybe: its like that...


what can cause them to sprout indoors?

I don't know all that much about plant biology. My tropical canna I've stored in the basement in paper bags of damp sphagnum moss. No matter what I do, they grow green leaves out the top of the bags, even in the dark. It's not super warm either so something else seems to trigger the growth.

robyn,

what if i sing to them?

do they like tunes in minor or major pitch sequence groups better?

They prefer minor keys. The more shrill noises get their juices flowing. Opera is good too. Just don't play hard metal, or they'll die.