Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Some people may hate me for this, but I feed my red-eared sliders rosy reds along with commercial foods and things.

Usually Rosys are 8-10 for a dollar so I was going to set up an aquarium and keep them and feed them a few at a time (my females will devour 50 a day if I let them). I decided I would try my own stock to feed just because I dont really like to feed my turtles "feeder fish" as some call them because they arent taken care of and I dont want my turtles to get any parasites, I keep my turtles very clean. Well, I went to a local petshot and a chain pet store and got a little of 100 Rosys and Flatheads (they were mixed together). I was going to do a little more research and found my way to Robyn's page, and see what I needed to to, so I had the fish in an aquarium with a filter and everything. I got the fish on Wednesday and it is Sunday night... THEY ARE ALL DEAD! dead... not eaten. I dont think they were over crowded, I have NEVER lost fish like this, I have had my bouts with dying fish, but I put medicine in the water and cleared up the problem, but I lost every single one of the fish... I bought that many because at the time I was going to learn how to select males from females and pair them up or put 2 males and a female together and the rest i would use as "feeders" after setting up my breeding stock.

I guess my question is.. Has anyone lost Rosys like this? I dont think it was my aquarium water. I put a couple in my pond and they are alive, at least they were last time I checked. Is there a way to find healthier Rosys and Flatheads, I cant afford to keep losing 12 dollars in fish in a few days (thats why I wanted to have my own stock).

After the first 10-20 died, I thought I would wait and see if I could pick out the "healthiest ones" out of the bunch, but apparently the mediciation I use didnt work.

I am completely stumped. I was about 2 seconds away from bringing 100 dead fish back to the chain pet store. If it is something about my water, I will take responsibility, but I did all the normal set up procedures for the water and I have filters and everything.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Unless your water was toxic, the fish should have lived longer than that. Surely low oxygen levels and ammonia would eventually kill them off in short order but not that fast. Most likely they were in bad shape when you got them which is very common with "feeders." They are kept overcrowded, anorexic, diseased, and without enough oxygen. It's a miracle any survive!

What size tank did you put the 100 fish in? Even if they were young, they should have been in 50 gallons or more if at all possible. If you want to aquarium breed the fish, I suggest starting with say a few dozen of them. Medicate them with the things I mention on my site (I think it was aquarium salt, Maracyn I and II, MelaFix, and Aquari-Sol that I used for my batch of feeders and brought them back from death when they were anorexic and hemorrhaging internally from repeated stress and netting). With aquarium breeding, you'll need a few fry tanks and grow out tanks. It will take 4-6 months for a batch of fry to be large enough for the RES's to eat. Thus, it's quite a commitment of time, money, and space to raise the minnows yourself. Making a pond just for them is easier, much less work, but fewer fry will survive than if removed in aquariums to grow out. My batch of rosy reds after two years has grown "only" to 63 fish since natural predators take their toll as well as the minnows eating most fry themselves. You can aquarium keep the adults and pond raise their fry in a safe pond (few predators) which may give you higher yields. As you say, your RES would eat 50 at once if she wanted to do so so you're not going to get that many babies to grow up that quickly. If you raise the rosy reds and fatheads, you'll probably find yourself admiring them and after all the work you'll put in, I don't know if you'll still want to feed them to the turtles!

Thanks for the reply!

I may and try to find a local breeder or something that has a healthy stock of Reds or other good fish for feed. I am gonna test and retest and re-retest my water, I dont see how its the water, it comes from the same place my pond water comes from, but anything is possible.

On a side note... my dad found a snake in my fish pond today, it was real small, I dont think it could have ate any of the fish, he was probably taking a dip, or getting a drink.

If it was pond water, it's highly unlikely there was a problem with the water. As I said, they were probably in really bad shape when you got them.

Garter snakes often visit my pond. The bigger ones can eat some fish or tadpoles but basically are not a problem. In some parts of the country, there are water snakes which love to eat fish and have to be relocated if they show up.

Hi Robyn,
I am having almost the exact same problem as Jarrod. I'm trying to use Rosey Reds to stock my 180 gal pond. A few days ago I purchased a dozen rosey reds, put them in a 30 gallon tank of declorinated water (the same tap water I use for my fish tanks which are doing fine). I even tested the ph which was neutral. I also added the medications which you recommended (Aquarisol QuickCure, Melafix, Maracide, Maracyn) in the proper dosage., plus aquarium salt. The fish were all dead within 48 hours (even though they were not all in great shape upon close inspection, most seemed healthy and lively enough when I put them in the tank). Yesterday I purchased eight more, from a different supplier, and twenty four hours later (as of this morning), three more were dead. They look very active in the LFS tanks and when I first put them in. I can understand a few weaklings not being able to handle the transition, but all of them? They looked
so active even though crowded amongst thousands of other minnows and goldfish in the feeder tank!

The only thing I can think of is that I do not have a water heater in the tank...I am trying to acclimate them to cooler temperatures of the pond, which I planned to put them into after seeing that they are healthy. The tank temperature is about 62 degrees, but since I measured the temperature of water in the bag they came in at 65 degrees, and floated the bag until the temperatures were equal, I didn't think that would make much of a difference. Apparently so-called "tuffies" are not as tough as I expected. I really hate to see fish die on me. Now should I wait to see if these four survive, before I add more? Would it be OK to move the "survivors"...IF there are any....of each quarantine batch into the pond after the medication period, even if only a small number at a time? I only have the one 30 gallon quarantine tank to put them in. The other thing I worry about is the pond water is still only 58 - 59 degrees. Daytime temperatures are hovering in the 60's, but the pond is near the house and shaded a good portion of the day. I need fish that can take very cool water for a good portion of the year.

If these last five don't survive, I'm ready to give up completely and just try a few goldfish instead. Gee, I hope I don't kill the goldfish too. :(

Thanks for any help you can give.
~Linda

4:22PM 5/10/05 update
And then there were three. :(

"I even tested the ph which was neutral. I also added the medications which you recommended (Aquarisol QuickCure, Melafix, Maracide, Maracyn) in the proper dosage., plus aquarium salt. The fish were all dead within 48 hours (even though they were not all in great shape upon close inspection, most seemed healthy and lively enough when I put them in the tank)."

I used Maracyn I and II, MelaFix, Aquarisol, and aquarium salt. I did not use Quick cure or Maracide. Perhaps they were overdosed on parasitic medications which can be deadly. Sometimes it helps when quarantining "feeder" fish to not use any anti-parasite medications for the first week while they are settling in. Also, if you have soft water like I do, full doses of those strong parasite medications are very deadly. If I wanted to use Maracide for example, I'd have to use a half dose. Test your water's hardness if you haven't. If it's soft, always start potentially non-safe medications at half the recommended dose. Aquari-Sol is what I've used for parasites like ick because it seems to be less dangerous, and I do use that at full dose.

Did the fish show signs of distress right before dying?

"Yesterday I purchased eight more, from a different supplier, and twenty four hours later (as of this morning), three more were dead. They look very active in the LFS tanks and when I first put them in. I can understand a few weaklings not being able to handle the transition, but all of them? They looked
so active even though crowded amongst thousands of other minnows and goldfish in the feeder tank!"

What kind of filtration and aeration in your 30 gallon tank? As you said, the minnows were very crowded in their old home. While counterintuitive, fish can actually die when they go from the polluted environs that they are used to to a nice roomy and clean water tank.

"The only thing I can think of is that I do not have a water heater in the tank...I am trying to acclimate them to cooler temperatures of the pond, which I planned to put them into after seeing that they are healthy. The tank temperature is about 62 degrees, but since I measured the temperature of water in the bag they came in at 65 degrees, and floated the bag until the temperatures were equal, I didn't think that would make much of a difference."

Rosy reds can live down to freezing. As long as the temperature change was not sudden, that shouldn't have been much of a factor.

"Apparently so-called "tuffies" are not as tough as I expected. I really hate to see fish die on me."

It's very hard to lose fish. Considering the horrible life the minnows had before you got them, they are pretty tough!

"Now should I wait to see if these four survive, before I add more?"

Yes.

"Would it be OK to move the "survivors"...IF there are any....of each quarantine batch into the pond after the medication period, even if only a small number at a time?"

Yes, after you are sure they are healthy. I suggest quarantining a full month but two weeks at least is better than no quarantine. If you quarantine for a month, you can treat them the first few weeks with antibiotics, etc. and then the later weeks with the stronger parasitic medications. It also lets you "beef them up" as most feeder fish are anorexic.

"The other thing I worry about is the pond water is still only 58 - 59 degrees. Daytime temperatures are hovering in the 60's, but the pond is near the house and shaded a good portion of the day. I need fish that can take very cool water for a good portion of the year."

Rosy reds like it best in the 60's and 70's but can take down to freezing. As long as you acclimate them to the change, they can go into your pond.

"If these last five don't survive, I'm ready to give up completely and just try a few goldfish instead. Gee, I hope I don't kill the goldfish too."

Goldfish "feeders" I've found to be a less likely to die than minnow "feeders." Perhaps you can get some healthy rosy reds from a fellow ponder instead of starting with the feeders which have to be nursed back to health.

<<Perhaps they were overdosed on parasitic medications which can be deadly. >>
This is a strong possibility. I now fear I may have overmedicated and the combination was toxic. There is now only one lonely survivor and I moved him into a 30 gallon barrel of 50% pond water (the pond water is clean and filtered, with only vegetation) and 50% dechlorinated tap water. I'm going to try again with a new batch of rosy reds to just acclimate them for a week, then I will use only one medication at a time.

<<Did the fish show signs of distress right before dying?>>
Not that I could see. They did become much less active within a few hours after being introduced into the tank. I didn't actually witness any of their deaths, most were found floating or laying on the bottom, in the morning or when I came home from work.

<<What kind of filtration and aeration in your 30 gallon tank?>>
Just a small filter powered by an air pump. I didn't expect a huge build up of
ammonia or wastes as I planned to test the levels and change 25% of the water weekly, and I didn't plan to have them in the quarantine tank for more than a few weeks.

<<Considering the horrible life the minnows had before you got them, they are pretty tough!>>
Until they were unfortunate enough to encounter a well meaning but apparently clueless do-gooder like me. :unsure:

<<It also lets you "beef them up" as most feeder fish are anorexic.>>
Never got to the point where they would eat, they were too busy dying.
Will they eat regular flake food? I use flake food, micropellets, and frozen brine shrimp and frozen bloodworms for my white clouds (which thankfully I have had no problems with).

I wish I knew other ponders that used rosy reds, but I don't. I do think the rosy red feeders could have been fine, and I'm pretty sure it was something I did that killed them. ( I'm hoping I don't run into the same problem as the JarrodRossi who started this thread. If that happens, I'm throwing in the towel. Wish me luck).

"Just a small filter powered by an air pump. I didn't expect a huge build up of
ammonia or wastes as I planned to test the levels and change 25% of the water weekly, and I didn't plan to have them in the quarantine tank for more than a few weeks."

Actually, ammonia can build up in just a few days but probably not as quick as you lost the fish. I do 50% weekly water changes on my tanks.

"Until they were unfortunate enough to encounter a well meaning but apparently clueless do-gooder like me."

But we will never know if they could have even been saved so don't blame yourself.

"Will they eat regular flake food? I use flake food, micropellets, and frozen brine shrimp and frozen bloodworms for my white clouds (which thankfully I have had no problems with)."

Yes, they will enjoy all those foods you listed.

I tested the water today, the pH was around 7.5, the nitrates and nitrites were normal, (i got screwed on my test kit, it came with 2 pH charts but not an ammonia chart) I checked the ammonia anyway (there was a little chart on the box, i could make out a little) and the ammonia is supposed to be 0.0 ppm, which was a greenish yellow color, my ammonia was like dark hunter green, which was the last possible color it could be.

Should I try and get the ammonia down with chemicals or should i just dump the water out and start over

I'm a chemist and can say that the test kits sold for aquarists aren't all that accurate so I always verify results with at least two different sorts (brands and/or types) of kits. But since you're reading was off the charts, it does sound like you have high ammonia which certainly explains fish deaths. If there are no fish in there right now, change out all the water. You should also get a baseline reading of the ammonia from your tap water. Sometimes tap water has it. Also, this will show you what a negative reading should look like if your tap water doesn't have ammonia. If you get a positive reading from the kit, it could indicate it's in the tap water (perhaps as chloramine broken apart if you add dechlorinator like sodium thiosulfate without an ammonia neutralizer), or the test kit is bad or old. If you have fish in this ammonia-laden water, do daily 50% water changes for a while to try to get it down. Also, add Ammo-Lock to convert the ammonia to a less toxic form. Zeolite (looks like white rocks) will also absorb ammonia but has to be changed once it's full of ammonia. You never did say what size tank you had but 100 rosy reds, even young ones produce a good deal of ammonia. I hope you can get the situation under control.

My water chemistry page including how to control ammonia - http://www.fishpondinfo.com/chem.htm

I tested my tap water ammonia and it is in the normal level. All the ponds are looking good except the one that the 2 turtles were in, the ammonia was high and the nitrites too, but I will work on getting that under control and turning it into another fish pond. Hoepfully everything is going to work out.

I was wondering about using the plastic kiddie pools to put rosys in. They are alot cheaper/per gallon, but they arent very deep. It would be mostly for fry probably. Isnt the best way to breed the rosys by putting 1 male and 2 females together? How do they community breed, can you put 3-4 males and 2-8 females in one place, or will they disturb each others eggs?

I've put fish in kiddie pools before but only short term and in the summer. Rosy reds would probably breed in one. A small air-driven filter or pump would help keep the water cleaner as they only hold about 20 gallons (the big ones, smaller ones half that). Lots of plants would help shade such a shallow pond.

Males compete for laying sites. If a male succeeds in taking over another male's site, he'll start by eating the eggs and cleaning the site. Females lay eggs but also love to eat fry. The fewer fish you have in there (as long as there's a pair), the more fry will survive due to predation from the parents. In a kiddie pool, 2 males and 4 females might be a good starting point. To get more fry, move the clay pots, PVC pipes, or whatever you use for laying sites to another pond once they're full of eggs to grow out without the parents there to eat them. Give the males new pots or whatever that look the same. They may wonder where their babies went but will soon spawn again.