Well, I now have my fish:

1 male guppy
4 female guppies
1 very small common pleco

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They were just introduced into my tank and they seem to be doing fine. They have had no trouble with the filter intake and actually seem to enjoy the bubble bar.

But, I suppose it is still early. The signs are good though, and that is always fine.

I gave them a small feeding of flakes which they ate.

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I am more worried about the pleco. It had a very rough time at the walmart. The lady that collected it for me didn't know what she was doing. She used a tiny net, which made it all the more difficult to catch the thing, chased the thing around the tank for a good four or five minutes, and in the process dropped an aquarium decoration on it.

It had a rough time. I am wondering if I should just use some melafix right away?

There is no visible damage that I can see, though some of the fins look a touch red at the tips.

I am not sure if that is just coloration though.

Honestly I don't know what the people at the store think they are doing. I mean, they overcrowd those tanks like crazy. They must have had at least 20 guppies and several larger fish in a single 10 gallon tank. That and they keep Bettas in those little half full cup things that probably don't even have a full cup of water in there.

EDIT: I would like to take a picture of my pleco's fins with an instant camera. What is the best method for doing that?

thats great that your fish are doing well. But do you really have to make a topic about it?

No, I suppose I didn't have to make a new thread about it, but it seemed more appropriate than dodging through all the other threads I have made regarding everything from tank size to fish selection to aeration.


Anyway, my primary concern right now is the plecos health. Those red colors on the fins are a bit disconcerting.

It almost looks like it might be blood. Has anyone seen that sort of thing before?

take the plecos back to the store. You should have put this in your suggestions for 20 gallon instead.

Thank you for your concern but the issue of tank size has been dealt with in its thread and it is no longer applicable.

The question of what fish to get has been addressed, dealt with, and is also done.

The aeration concern has been dealt with as well.

This thread is about my current fish.

If a moderator, admin, or whatever else this board uses decides this thread is inappropriate, that is fine. Until then, I intend to address the concerns of my current fish here.

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As for your suggestion to take the pleco back, I think that is premature, at least until I know what is wrong if indeed it is a serious problem.

Even if it is injured, I think it stands a far better chance of recovery in my tank than it would in one of the overcrowded ones it came from. Since I have a 90 day gurantee on all my fish, I would prefer to give the thing a chance.

EDIT: After a closer look, I would have to guess that something has been nipping at its fins. If it is just a factor of having been put in with some inappropriate fish at one time or another, then I would say it stands a good chance of recovery, assuming that is all that is wrong. I think I will hold off on the melafix for now and observe a bit longer. Also it probably wouldn't be wise to medicate them right after being placed in a new tank.

use the medication when you know what it is. Plecos can be kept with most fish exept some african cichlids.

Pet stores keep many fish jammed into small tanks so that they can make a profit. If they gave the fish the room and setups they deserve, they'd go out of business. While owners of actual fish stores often do know about fish, the workers are mostly going to be young, receiving minimum wage, and lacking the knowledge that should be spread to the customers. It's one of those things where you can't blame an individual but the entire system of selling. Stores can't afford to pay higher wages for people with vast stores of knowledge. If you're lucky, you'll find a salesperson (like I was when I worked for two months at a fish store) right out of college but still unable to find a job or maybe someone who has retired and kept fish all his/her life.

The netting of the pleco certainly could have injured him. The red tipped fins indicate stress, injury, and/or water quality problems (not necessarily from your setup but also from the store). Red streaking may indicate septicemia (bacterial problems in the blood). I would go ahead and treat with the MelaFix. It is not harmful in any way (all natural) and may help. Also, if you haven't added aquarium salt, I would put in a tablespoon per 3 gallons or so to help fight off infections that often crop up after stressful situations. Be sure to monitor your ammonia and nitrite levels in your new tank.

If pieces of fin are missing, that could have been previous damage from other fish or simply damage from the rough chase and transfer of the pleco. The MelaFix will help stave off infection. If you notice anything fuzzy growing, you may need to treat with a fungal medication. If the areas become infected (non-fuzzy white or gray growths; black is healing tissue), then an antibiotic may be in order.

The pleco is probably better off in your tank than the store as you said. My page on common plecos is at http://www.fishpondinfo.com/pleco.htm

I am the "owner" if you will of this forum. I find no problem with your opening a new topic to discuss your new tank. This is an open forum which means anyone can post. If I find that people start to post things that are negative towards one another or otherwise inappropriate, I will make it a members-only forum and remove any members who don't mind their manners. I ask that members try to remain nice to one another and don't chastise someone for making what you perceive to be a bad decision. They may simply not have known or perhaps you're even wrong. This is meant to be a general statement to all people.

did you get the net breeder yet? Sometimes when you look in your tank you will find babies. You shouldnt buy anymore guppies because they will just have babies. You could even sell babies to a pet store. My friend makes alot of money from doing that. BTW sorry Robyn and Matt i was acting stupid.

Thanks for all the advice. I will start medicating immediately. To answer some of the questions:

I already have one tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons in there, so I will just up the dose a little. Unfortunately, I think the tank is just starting into its cycling process. Still, I will keep a close eye on the water quality.

The fin seems to be intact, there is just a reddish rim around the edges of its rear side fins(I don't know the appropriate term.) There is no sign of anything fuzzy or any other sort of growths.

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Yeah, I strongly suspect that all four of the females I bought are already pregnant. I read through the guppy page and even did a google image search for "pregnant guppy." The pictures match up.

I went to get a net breeder, but the guy at the shop said he recommends another sort. So I have a floating plastic breeder that is apparently designed to protect the fry from their mother.

Well, unfortunately the only pet shop around only takes them for credit. In theory, the guppies could eventually pay for their own supplies though.

i forgot to say he got credit instead of money. I dont know what the thing that guy sold you. As long as it works i guess its okay. Sorry for being rude to you before matt.

Don't worry about it.

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Anyway, I am not entirely sure how often I will be able to check up on my pleco. It has spent a lot of its time under one of my ceramic arches, though it did apparently eat an algae wafer last night.

I was hoping to get some information as to how to take a picture of a fishtank. I have tried a few times before, but the image is always blurry. If I could get a good picture of my little pleco's fins, I could scan it in so that it could be identified.

do you have a digital camara? When i take pics of my fish its not that blurry with the digital camara.

I managed to get a picture of the little guy, though it is not a very good one.



Not sure how much you can really get out of the picture.

I read up on plecos a bit, and one thing that comes to mind is that in general, the lighter the color, the more stressed the fish is. Since this one is pretty light, I am somewhat concerned.

Thankfully though, the red on its fins seems smaller than it was yesterday. You will probably have to take my word for it, as you can't see it very well in the photo.

I do have a concern about using Melafix at the moment. I did do the first dose of the stuff, but in order for it to work, you can't have an activated charcoal filter in. I put in an empty filter pack for now, but since my tank is just beginning its cycle, I would assume that having a running charcoal filter would be essential.

its actually carbon, not charcoal. It is important during cycling. If you chose to take it out you should test your water every day. If you keep it in with any other medicine, the carbon will absorb it. I cant really get any thing out of that pic. Maybe you can take one where we can see his red fins? I have a small pleco in a 15 gallon (opps) with the same gravel. Im upgrading it to a 30 gallon and pea gravel. Pea gravel is natral looking pebbles.

Heh... Oops.

Anyway, I always get a blurry picture of the tank whenever I try to take a picture of it. That one was the best out of about 10 shots.

If you look closely at the tip of its back left fin(at upper right) you can see the red rim on the fin, though it is not very clear.

Anyway, I got a look at him this morning and I think its color is a bit darker than it was last night. I take that as a good sign.

I think I am just going to put the carbon into the filter and hope that the first treatment of melafix did some good. If the problem persists once the cycling is completed, I will try it then.

I find that unlikely, as it will probably have killed the fish or healed by then. Still, if I don't filter the water properly, it would probably be worse.

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Actually, I have three different types of gravel in there. I bought two smaller bags of aquarium gravel and reused the stuff from my old tank. I did rinse off the old gravel, but I wonder if it might still help the cycling process a little.

The plastic breeders are different in their use than the net breeders. The plastic ones are for putting a pregnant mother into. Once she drops her young, they go below a grate where she can't eat them. The hard plastic "breeder traps" are not adequate for long term housing as in most cases, they don't have tiny holes that allow water exchange with the main tank but keep the fry in. Many in fact either have no holes at all resulting in quickly stagnating water, or the holes are large enough that the fry just go through them into the main tank. Also, removing a pregnant guppy and sticking her into one of the traps is very stressful for her, and she may give birth prematurely, usually resulting in dead fry. For that reason, I prefer to have a guppy birth in a tank with plant cover (the fewer other fish, the better) and then transfer the fry to their own place. The advantage of the net "breeder" is not really to house expectant mothers but to actually put in fry and small fish for longer periods of time. Because it's a net, there is complete water exchange with the main tank, keeping the water safe as far as low ammonia, high oxygen levels, etc. The net also keeps in even the tiniest egg-laid fry. It also allows the main tank fish to get to know the new members of the tank without being able to harm them. Then, when released from the net, it's usually less taxing on both the fry and the other fish. The only problem I have is doing my 50% weekly water changes. I have to catch the fry (egg-laid ones) with a cup (too small for nets) and put them in a large cup, take out the net breeder, do the cleaning, return the net breeder, and put the fry back because the water level drop is below the net for my tanks. So, I've accidently squished a few fry over the years in the folds of the net.

I can't tell much from your pleco photo aside from the fact that it's not that big, and it has some septicemia at the ends of the fins (the red blood streaking).

I don't bother to remove the activated carbon from my filters while using MelaFix. It will work better without the carbon though. The carbon acts as a chemical filter. It is not normally a biological filter unless there is not a place for the bacteria to grow. Most filters have chemical, biological, and mechanical filtration. The carbon doesn't normally relate to the biological cycle. Bacteria will grow there but the carbon should be changed regularly, and the majority of good bacteria grow on a biowheel, a bio-sponge, and/or the gravel, etc. What make and model filter do you have?

Certainly using gravel from another healthy tank would speed up the nitrogen cycle. Rinsing the gunk out first is important to reduce the waste in the new tank. If you have city water, you may have wanted to put some of it with dechlorinator in a bucket to rinse the gravel instead of rinsing it directly as the chlorine in city water may kill some good bacteria.

Alright, so septicemia. According to google, that is blood poisoning. How can I treat it?

As for my little floating breeder thing, the holes are tiny and I couldn't imagine much of anything getting in or out though the water vents. Admittedly it is small. I suppose I will look into a net breeder as well.

I suppose if you have gotten melafix to work while using carbon... Still, it says right on the bottle to take out carbon filters.

My filter is a whisper internal filter 10-20i.

I have well water. It doesn't require much treatment in order for the water to be suitable for my fish. In fact, they could probably survive on it out of tap water. All I add are stress zyme, aquarium salt, and aqua safe.

Oops... sorry about that. Forgot to sign in.

as long as the thing you bought has holes its okay. I would still look into a net breeder.

Septicemia is technically blood poisoning or bacteria in the blood but it doesn't have to result from a direct bacterial problem. It can be a reaction to extreme stress or poor water quality. The best thing to do is keep the tank clean and safe, add aquarium salt, and perhaps antibiotics. They may not have an ideal effect if just in the water as the problem is internal where little antibiotic would end up.

Yes, MelaFix may say to remove carbon but that's for optimal effect. Unless the carbon is fresh, and there's a lot of it, it's not going to remove but a small percentage of the MelaFix. I don't remove my carbon because in some cases, it's a lot of work (canister filter) or attached to my mechanical filter (pads in hang-on-tank filters which I guess could be cut open and the carbon removed).

Well, that seems to fit. I just recently found out that the wal mart pet department uses one big filtration system and actually shares water between all of the tanks. Considering they have fish that require all sorts of differing conditions, I certainly see poor water quality being abundant.

Also, the fact that they seem to remove dead fish on a irregular basis at best can't help. Plus with the shared water supply, it seems that disease would spread quickly...

As for extreme stress... the employees bludgeoning the poor things with aquarium ornaments as they try to fish them out seems to apply.

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Sorry about the rant there. It just seems the more I learn about fish and the more I learn about the way that they keep theirs, the worse it looks.

That is essentially what the guy at the pet shop said. I have made sure to add a little extra aquarium salt and I plan to do bi weekly water changes at about 20% or so. It may slow down the nitrogen cycling, but it should make things easier on the fish.

Actually, my filters are the sort that you put together yourself, so not adding the carbon is very easy. There is a good quantity of carbon in them though. Still, I can smell the melafix in the tank, so I can only assume that most of it is not being removed.

I just picked up a net breeder today. I figure I will use the plastic one to keep the fry safe from their mother and use the net one for them to grow up in.


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As for my Pleco, I have good and bad news.

The good news is that its fins no longer look red at all. They have a sort of orangish tan coloration, but it matches the lighter areas on the fishes pattern. I hope this means it is closer to recovery.

The bad news is that it never seems to use one of its rear fins(the one that looks folded up in the photo) and think it may be broken.

If you find any baby guppies you should just put them in the net breeder. you probably dont want to move around fragile babies. That is weird that the pleco doesnt use that fin.

Which reminds me. How would I know when the guppies are about to give birth? I have read a few articles, but they really aren't of much help.

Anyhow, how would I go about using the trap/net breeder to collect the fry?

I imagine scooping a mother guppy out of the tank while she is giving birth would not be wise. I suppose I could try to move the breeder trap over her while she is in the tank, then close it, but again, that doesn't seem ideal.

I know that it would be ideal to have the fish give birth in its own small tank with plenty of places for the fry to take cover, but that really isn't an option here.

So, what would be the best method to get the guppy to predict the birth, then make sure it takes place somewhere that I can save the majority of the fry?

Also, since the young fry would be so fragile, how would I move them into the net breeder?

okay this is what i do when i find fry. Lets say im feeding my fish and i see a small guppy that could get eaten. I set up a net breeder and catch the baby guppy very carefully with the net. I dont really know either when a guppy is going to have babies. You just ussually find fry in my case. I have a heavily planted tank. They usually hide up in my floating plant up against the tanks glass.

I don't even go near the fish departments in major chains anymore. It upsets me too much. I want to start cleaning the tanks, removing the dead fish, adding medications, educating people, etc. They hate that. So, I stay away. It's bad but out of sight, out of mind.

Not using a fin may indicate that the fin's support was broken. It's not a bone but it can break. It may heal. Or, it could be that bacteria are making the pleco ill.

"How would I know when the guppies are about to give birth? I have read a few articles, but they really aren't of much help."

You won't know for sure. She may stop eating the day before and act a little sick, hanging in one spot. Her gravid spot will obviously grow larger over time.

"Anyhow, how would I go about using the trap/net breeder to collect the fry?"

After the fry are out, you can suck them up and put them in the net. For egg-laid fry, I use a pipette but guppy fry are larger and may not fit so you can either cut the end off of a plastic pipette or try a turkey baster. Alternatively, you can try to coax them into a dixie cup. Do not use a net; it will just squish them.

"I imagine scooping a mother guppy out of the tank while she is giving birth would not be wise. I suppose I could try to move the breeder trap over her while she is in the tank, then close it, but again, that doesn't seem ideal."

If you want to put her in there, then turn the net breeder on its side and gently chase her into it and then turn the net breeder back into the right position. If she's in there, be sure to put in some cover for fry like a wad of java moss, or she may eat them. I prefer collecting fry after birth instead of putting parents in smaller containers but that method produces fewer fry in general (but less stress for the adults).

"I know that it would be ideal to have the fish give birth in its own small tank with plenty of places for the fry to take cover, but that really isn't an option here."

Yes, that's ideal.

"So, what would be the best method to get the guppy to predict the birth, then make sure it takes place somewhere that I can save the majority of the fry?"

If you're using the net breeder, then fill it 1/4 full of java moss and put the mother in there when she looks large. It will be easier to predict when a female is ready to birth after you've seen it a few times. Part of the problem is that how big she gets depends so much on her age and size and the number of fry in there.

"Also, since the young fry would be so fragile, how would I move them into the net breeder? "

See above.

dont you have another pet store near you? They just want to sell fish. i have a pet store near me called billy bs aquarium. the pet store has every fish you can think of. The owner closes down once a week to clean the tanks, medicate the fish, etc. The tanks are under stocked and the fish are great. But the thing is that the owner is a grumpy old man and the fish are expensive. Its worth it though to buy a healthy fish.

Actually, it seems to be doing a bit better today. The fin is no longer folded up underneath the body like it was before, and I don't see any signs of red on the fins anymore.

I haven't seen it move the fin yet, but since it doesn't move a whole lot, that is hardly surprising.

I don't have any live plants. I honestly prefer using the fake ones as I can take them out and clean them. I don't need live plants for aeration since I have plenty from the air bar, and all in all, they just seem like a lot more trouble than they are worth.

I have read that a female guppy produces a chemical that prevents her from being hungry while giving birth.

Otherwise, I could try a similar strategy with the plastic breeder, then just pour the fry out into the net breeder. That way they wouldn't really need cover.

All we have within any reasonable distance (IE fish would survive long enough to get from the shop to home) are two places. Walmart and a pet shop called petnorth.

Petnorth is overcrowded like most places, but they take excellent care of the tanks and I have not seen a single dead fish in any of their tanks any of the times I have been there.

Unfortunately, that reflects in their prices as well. Also, their fish only have a 3 day guarantee on them. Not that that is much of an issue since the fish are healthy.

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Walmart has lower prices all around, but I already explained what they put those fish through.

Considering my pleco came with a free bludgeoning, injury, and case of blood poisoning, I prefer to avoid it.

They do however have a 90 day guarantee, which unfortunately seems to be needed more often.

Prices dont really matter as long as you are getting healthy fish. All pet stores have overcrowded tanks. The guarantee doesnt matter either. Go to Pet North. They actually take care of the animals properly because that is what they only sell. You should really get a few live plants. I have a half fake, half live. It used to be a live but my fish and shrimp destroyed some. The plants are also a food source and they break down chemicals. You really dont want to make any of your fish stressed. I dont put any guppies in the breeder unless they are to small and can get eaten.

I really don't like live plants for a few reasons:

1. They can die. Fake ones can't.

2. They make cleaning a difficulty, whereas with fake ones I can just move them whenever I want.

3. I always know exactly how much space a fake one will take up. With live ones I don't.

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As for them being a food source, that is why I buy various sorts of fish food.

As for breaking down chemicals, I have good filtration and aeration.

It may make life a bit more difficult for fry, but I think the net breeder will give them a chance. Also, if I keep them in the net breeder I can fit their increased food needs without worry of overfeeding the adults.

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As for petnorth, yes, I intend to go there for the most part. They actually don't have a few things that Walmart does though.

live plants arent good for your tank. the pleco will eat them. You should just ask for half a java fern for the breeder.

It sounds like the pleco is getting better.

I have a black thumb when it comes to live plants with a few exceptions, mainly java moss. It grows like mad, is very soft, the ideal egg-laying location, full of microscopic things to eat, filters the water, and provides excellent hiding places for fry. I only suggested putting it into the net breeder if you intended to put the mother in there. She can rest in the java moss and any babies can hide easily. Java moss doesn't root well but will attach itself to driftwood and some ornaments. It has taken over my 50 gallon tank so I toss some out each week. I attach it to 6 suction cup clips which have to be replaced a few times a year when they stop sucking. They're really cheap though. Java moss is great. Java fern is a totally different plant which provides very little cover.

My common pleco will eat any and all live plants but my bristlenose plecos leave the plants alone. Your pleco is small, right? If so, he won't do much plant damage as of yet.

Female guppies will sometimes eat their fry regardless of what may suppress such desire. You can certainly birth the fry in the plastic breeder and then move them to the net breeder.

It's certainly worth paying a little more for healthier fish.

Due to lack of time (and money), I long ago turned to mail ordering all my dry goods for my aquariums, ponds, and other animals. The only things I get at the local pet or aquarium store are live animals and a few other things I can count on my hand. I use mostly http://www.thatpetplace.com and http://www.drsfostersmith.com for supplies.

"1. They can die. Fake ones can't."

I don't know, I've had fake ones fall apart, lose all their color, etc.!

"2. They make cleaning a difficulty, whereas with fake ones I can just move them whenever I want."

That's true in general. I just move the live ones too sometimes.

"3. I always know exactly how much space a fake one will take up. With live ones I don't."

If you keep live plants, you will learn the growth rates and sizes. Java moss though can take over.

you might want to get a bristle nose pleco next time.

Yeah, it is starting to look a lot better. I saw its unfurl its dorsal fin today though, and that one still has a touch of red on it. I am just keeping up with the melafix and water quality and hoping for the best.


Regarding live plants, I just really don't like the idea. It sounds like the fry will have a good chance without it and I have no egglayers that would need it. Fake plants suit my needs just fine.

Java moss seems like a nice plant and all, but first off, there really isn't a lot for it to root to. Second, I want to keep as much of my tank open as possible so there is a good deal of swimming space, and third would be my earlier objections to live plants in general.

As for the fry, I will just try to use the breeding trap if I can, otherwise I will just use the net breeder and save as many as I can.

We went over this one in the 20 gallon thread. The bristlenose ones are more delicate, more expensive, and I am not sure they would like the water I am using. I already have experience with the common ones and know they will work.

i wouldnt say they are that delicate. They are better cleaners and stay small. Its a better option then buying a baby common and returning it.

Java moss doesn't need to root. Most of mine is just free/loose.

I've not found bristlenose's to be more delicate. They also were only a few dollars more.

I never would give any fish back to the store. I love my fish and i would not like to see them in a store again. If you really like the common pleco so much you should have purchased a larger tank.

I have no intention of sending my pleco back to walmart.

Petnorth takes excellent care of their fish though and I have no qualms about selling a healthy pleco to them.

you really should do reasearch on the bristle nose or even another small pleco.

I already did, back when you first suggested it in the 20 gallon thread.

its just a better and easier idea then having to get a new pleco all the time. If you really like the commons you really need a bigger tank.