We bought a house and the previous renters left behind a small tank which I would like to keep for our kids. I think the fish in it are too large, though, and I'd like to find someone to give them to. I know very little about fish, but I know everything needs to be taken out and cleaned and I'd like to put in some small colorful fish that are good for beginners.

The tank is 20"x10"x12" on the outside. It has 3 large rocks with tunnels that take up most of the center of the tank. It has about 2" of pebbles in the bottom. The water level fills the tank just a little more than half full. There are 3 fish that look a lot like the picutres of Robyn's Plecy - about 5", 4", and 3" long. There's barely enough room for them to swim around the rocks along the outside of the tank. I turned 1 of the rocks on end so they could get between 2 of the rocks. They spend most of their time hiding in the tunnels. They survived being abandoned for a week and just occaisionally being fed by the construction workers. Am I right in thinking they're too big for this tank?

I called a local man who goes to out to places to clean aquariums, but he has not responded. I need a way to give away these fish. I'd also like to give away at least the 2 larger rocks. Does anyone out there have suggestions? Anyone live close enough to Roanoke, VA, and want them? I have no idea how to transport them safely, but I've seen that you can buy fish on the internet, so it must be possible.

I tried to include pictures here that I took, but I don't have a website to load them to in order to use the IMG button above. If anyone wants to see the pictures, I'll email them. You can contact me at cspain@cox.net.

so thats a 10 gallon with 3 plecs? thats way over stocked. i already have 1 and hes enough. you should give them to a pet store. the tanks are pretty easy to clean. if you have a any ?s about fish you would like to replace them with just ask.

Thanks Tommy! How do I get them to the pet store without hurting them?

What do you suggest for us to start with? Someone told me to get a small catfish to clean the bottom. I also read to only put in 1/4" of gravel. Is that right?

you can put more gravel in if the fish you like need to burrow. 1/4 is good though. before bring them to the store you should ask the store first if they will take them for you. i wouldnt really know the proper way but i usually use a small tank with a lid on it when i return my fish. but they are smaller than your. maybe a bucket with water from the tank should do it. just make sure it doesnt tip over in the car! Have you ever kept a fish tank before? what is the hardness of your water?

Hi, I have a few suggestions that may help you out.

First off, for transporting your plecos(good luck removing them from the tank btw.) you will want to go with either a bucket or if you have the extra cash, you can get small 1 gallon transport tanks at most pet stores. They work great provided the trip to the pet shop is relatively short and not particularly bumpy. If the ones you get have an open top that can slosh, at least set it in a plastic bag(same goes for the bucket) to prevent it from sloshing over.

As for your fish choices, there are lots to choose from. By far your best choice though is to test your tap/aquarium water with some sort of aquarium testing strip. Then you can choose fish that will fit the water conditions and you can avoid having to add a lot of conditioners to suit the fish.

Once you know what the conditions are, I recommend looking over this:

http://www.fishpondinfo.com/fish.htm

To find some compatable species. Robyn runs a great database that even includes troubleshooting and a general listing of the ease of keeping the fish.

Once you find something compatable that you like, go to a pet store(they should give you credit for the plecos.) and pick some up.

The water in the tank should already be conditioned, so don't completely change it or you will have to condition the tank.

it may be a good idea to dump the tank. if i found a running tank in my new house i would dump it. Good advice matt.

I don't know if it would be such a good idea to dump the tank. That would require it to go through a cycle again.

Would certainly be a good idea to do at least a partial change and test the water, especially for ammonia though.

What does the water look like? Does it look clear, green, cloudy?

but still i would dump the water, its up to her. testing the water is very important. she should cycle it again to learn more and its good to have chemicals that help cycle a tank like stress coat around when you do a water change.

Can still learn about additives without sending the tank through another cycle. Besides, it is either lost time for a fishless cycle or stressful for the fish with a fish cycle.

Up to her I suppose.

My guess is though that this tank probably hasn't been cleaned recently and could be suffering from high ammonia or worse, so a partial water change is definately a good idea.

true but if the water quality isnt great she sould dump the tank. its not like she there is anything wrong with a dump. its safer also. does the tank have the basic equipment?heater, filter, light? some fish dont even mind living in a cycled tank such as zebra danios.

I suppose there really is little we can really say about dumping or not dumping until we find out what kind of condition the water/plecos are in.

Also, without knowing how resistant to the cycling process the fish that she wants will be, doesn't help there either.

true, we will have to wait for a response.

Personally, myself, I'd probably sterilize the tank after finding a new home for the plecos. Some fish stores may take them or your local fish club. It certainly is up to you if you want to use things from the tank. If you remove some gravel as well as any biological filter media, that's where most of the good bacteria reside. Doing a 100% water change and adding conditioners, and aerating for a while before adding new fish certainly will not damage the good bacteria or require more cycling if you keep the good bacteria intact in the gravel (or some of it) and/or filter media. The gravel can be gently rinsed in water with dechlorinator without killing a significant amount of good bacteria. Since the tank is half empty, it's probably been ignored for a long time. If you test the ammonia, I'm guessing something will register. The water is probably full of pleco waste so it's best to dump the water in my opinion. Again, the number of nitrifying bacteria in the open water is not significant compared to the gravel and filter. When it does grow in the water, the water turns white and hazy. This can happen during cycling.

See http://www.fishpondinfo.com/chem.htm and http://www.fishpondinfo.com/fcare2.htm#tear if you decide you want to sterilize the system.

I normally use about 1 to 1.25" of gravel. In a 10 gallon tank, it might make sense to use a little less to save space.

For short distances, the fish can be transported in half-filled buckets. For long distances via mail, etc., they have to be packaged in plastic bags with oxygen, double bagged, put into styrofoam, and then in this heat, cold packs added.

Wow! Your info was great everyone! Thank you so much. The water is clear but it might be a little green. It's hard to tell because there is a background picture with a lot of green in it. There's no smell to the water at all. The gravel is very "gunky" looking in places. It looks like there are places where the rock is fine, and others where the rocks look like there's something gray/green coating them or settled all in among them. I know that there were at least 3 other fish in there that died. The construction workers took out 2 because they were smelling and I took out 1 right after we got here.

I think I will go with taking everything out and starting with clean water. Once we give away the plecos, there won't be anything in it until we are ready. There is a filter but the water flow out of it is very slow so it is probably clogged up. I read briefly about a filter called BioWheel. Is it a good one? Is it too much for a small beginner tank? The air bubbler thing is going great. There is no lid or light though so we'll have to get those. There's also no heater. As electrical outlets are at a premium in this house (built 1905), I'd rather not have another thing to plug in. Is there an all-in-1 gizmo? What are the benefits of warm water versus cold water tanks?

Can I add some water now to give the plecos more room until I find a home for them? If so, how much do I add? Maybe a cup a day for a few days? Can it be tap water like the site www.aquariumfish.net said? I'm feeding the plecos Spirulina Plus (the can said it had some kind of algae in it) and we found a can of TetraColor here (after I bought the other stuff of course!). Will these do for another week or so until I find a pet store I can convince to take them?

How do I catch them to put them in a bucket? I guess I need to go buy a net for that. We have a very small net which we used with an even smaller tank we got at PetSmart last year for the kids - I think it's a 2 gallon triangular one and we kept food fish in it (it was only big enough for 1 real fish but we have 3 kids - so we got 3 of the tiniest fish they sold - and didn't tell the kids the salesperson said they were food.) Anyway, the net we have simply won't work for these big things. I know I'm going to have to get over this, but just the thought of having to catch them gives me the willies.

Again, thank you so much for your advice everyone. I hope I haven't used up all your patience yet.

It sounds like you have some suspended algae, possibly some cyanobacteria, and an excess of pleco waste. You will definately want to do some water changes.

http://www.fishpondinfo.com/algae.htm

You should really just go through a phone book and find a nice pet store nearby. Most likely they would be happy to have them, and honestly, the sooner they are out of the tank, the better.

If there are replacement filters, you will probably want to put one in. If not, go buy one.

As for the biowheel, if I remember correctly, the purpose of those is just to store beneficial bacteria. It is a good thing, but pretty much any filter is good so long as it is appropriately sized for your tank.

Aeration is important. Plecos don't really love the light, so it is not an issue for now. Most fish do need light though.

Heaters are essential for most fish, and plecos don't last long if the water gets too cold. Get yourself a power strip or something.

As for cold water fish vs warm water fish, the primary concern would be variety. Fish that can survive in room temp water are pretty much just goldfish and normal guppies. Not a ton of variety there, though there are lots of different goldfish varieties.

As for warm water tanks, they are a bit more work, but as far as the fish go, there are many more choices.

Given that I know nothing about your tap water, I would not recommend using it directly. You need to get a bottle of aquasafe so that you can make sure that the tapwater is safe to add.

Most plecos do not eat flake foods. The the spirulina disks(or whatever) will probably be fine, and with all the algae that seems to be in the tank, I would guess that the plecos aren't in much danger of starving to death.

Trying to net a pleco is really a bad idea. Your best bet would be to take most of the water out of the tank, then take a smaller bucket or a big measuring cup or something of that nature and try to get them to go into it by chasing them with your hand.

As for plecos, you should probably try to get over your difficulties with touching them, as they have a tendency to jump out of buckets. If they do so, you would probably have to gently pick them up by hand.

Just transfer them into a larger bucket then, preferrably filled with water from the tank or tap water that has been treated with aqua safe and is as close as possible in temperature to the water in the tank.

Plecos are pretty tough, but it is never a good idea to make it any harder on your fish than absolutely necessary.

Take a look at this thread which details with my troubles going through pretty much the same thing you are:

http://s2.invisionfree.com/Fishpondinfo/in...p?showtopic=898

Everyone here is pretty friendly, and if we didn't enjoy talking about fish and helping people get through the same difficulties we had... well, we wouldn't be here.

Thanks for the warning about using a net to catch our plecos. After reading your pleco catching stories, I think I'll take out the rocks, siphon off enough water so the tank won't kill my hubby's back and schlep the whole thing to the pet store. While I have the tank there, they can tell me exactly what I need to unclog the filter and find a lid that's a perfect fit.

Do I need to worry about them jumping out of their own tank if they haven't done so yet?

You have been getting some pretty good suggestions. If I may add...

When looking for starter fish for a freshwater tank...one of your best bets is white cloud tetras. They are hardy & cycle the tank very well. Then I'd go with some cardinals & black neons to add some color. Eventually maybe a couple zebra or leopard danios for mid to upper tank movement. Be careful of how many you're putting in though. A 10-gallon gets overcrowded very easily. These fish are also ideal for children who want to learn to keep a tank. I have a ramshorn snail in both of my tanks. They keep it pretty clean & are rather inexpensive. My kids have a 10-gallon w/1 glowlight tetra (orange), 2 cardinals, 2 black neons, 4 white coulds, 1 ramnshhorn snail, 3 fancy guppies (1 male 2 female) & 2 African dwarf frogs. Our tank has also been established for a couple years & we're not adding anymore fish. I also have a 20-gallon in which I'm breeding paradise fish (lots of babies!!!) that contain a pair of paradise, a 3" common pleco & a ramshorn snail. All of these fish are inexpensive & fairly easy to care for. Be careeful about hwat you put togetehr though becasue not all fish are compatible. I can't put the paradise with the other as they are a more agrgessive fish. Good luck & take what the other have said about the tank to heart...we do all love our fish & have quite a bit of experience as a whole. :D

Plecos have been known to jump & they REALLY hate the net. You may want to put a ligfht towel (fairly loose knit for oxygen) over the tank if you have no hood or screen. I usually just chase mine into a large butter tub w/my hand when moving him. The net stresses them out. Most pet stores won't give you $ for them but will give you in-store credit to get the fish you want. That may be the way to stock it when you're ready...using some of the fish I mentioned above. Walmosrt won't goive you credit...try an independent fish supplier (not Petsmart) like Scamps (local to Springfield & Eugene Oregon). I don't know what's available where you are. Check into even putting a thrifty or free ad in the local paper. You never know.

for a 10 gallon you would need a 50 watt heater, and a filter with a bio wheel is probably the best option but its up to you. Before getting any new fish make sure the tank is running well, and the water quality is good. some stores do free water testings so ask about that at your lfs. Good starter fish are white cloud mountain minnows, zebra danios, leopard danios, and guppies. these fish breed alot so you can sell the babies and its also an educational experience for your kids. Matt does have good advice because he had to get rid of his 2 plecs too.

Val has added some good info, especially about not dealing with walmart. Just ask my little pleco how nasty they are to their fish. Not only will they not give you credit, but more often than not, disease runs rampant through the tanks. Their fish are usually a bit cheaper, but then again, you are far more likely to have to replace them.

Now, you might think that the 90 day guarantee sort of cancels that out, but keep in mind that it is a waste of time, the lives of the fish, and if you have an already established tank, they won't replace casualties from new diseases that were introduced into your tank.

As for starting fish, I highly recommend you get your water tested before you choose. Generally there is something that fits your needs in most any sort of water. If your water is hard and alkaline like mine is, guppies are the perfect choice.

If it is softer, and neutral or slightly acidic, then you have a whole world of possibilities availiable.

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As for uncloging the filter, it really depends on what sort of filter you have.

If it is a submersible, I would recommend taking it out(turning it off obviously), removing the filter pack, and just running some water over the intake and wiping the lip down with a clean rag.

If you have the standard variety(I forget what they are called) which has a rigid plastic tube that sucks water up, pumps it through a filter, then lets it flow back into the tank, then you have a slightly more difficult job on your hands.

First, you will want to unplug the thing and take it to a bathroom or some place else you have access to a sink and water.

Next, remove the plastic tube part and take off the straining cap(the end thing that looks something like a cage). Rinse any waste out of that.

Next, start running water through the tube itself. Generally, use hot water, and the best method I have found is to fill it part way with water, put a thumb over both ends and shake the thing hard several times before dumping it out. Repeat several times until you just get water when you dump it.

Next, take out the pump impeller assembly(not sure if that is what it is really called) which is the thing that the plastic tube was attached to. It should just pull out if it is like any of this variety that I have seen before. Just run hot water over this and move the impeller at the end around and up and down to clean it all off. Once it can be easily spun it is ready.

Lastly, take the main box itself and rinse it out. Might also want to use a rag to wipe it out. You might also have to get at the hole where the impeller assembly previously sat as it is a spot that accumulates waste.

EDIT: Oh, and you will want to replace the filter pack once it is done. Just make sure you get the right size and follow the instructions on the box.

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As for just lowering the water level and just transporting the whole tank, just keep in mind two things:

1. Water in a tank can be heavy. Even more than you probably think, and if it gets a chance to make waves, it will constantly shift that weight around on you.

2. If the water is colder than the outside, it can get condensation. Wet glass = slippery.

All in all, just be very careful.

Hope that helps.

1 gallon of water weights about 10 pounds.

This is all wonderful! Again, thank you, thank you, thank you!

It's only about 2/3 full, so that means there's about 70 pounds of water. We'll take it down a little more, maybe to half the tank. I think I should take the rocks out so they don't shift and hurt any of the fish in the process. What do you think? That will also take away where they like to hide most of the time so that might make them more interested in jumping. I'll put a towel over the top and keep towels handy for drying the outside of the tank.

After I get the water tested, I'll probably come back with more questions about which fish to start with.

I think our filter is the kind with the plastic tube and then the water comes out the top like a waterfall. I'm sure if I take the tank in, the store can help me get the right size filter replacements.

In Robyn's pages on keeping it clean, she talks about vacuuming the rocks. Is there any particular brand of vacuum that is better/easier than others?

its not a real vacuum, its a tube that sucks up water, ask about it when you go to the pet shop. rember you need a 50 watt heater, its very important. Yes you should take the rocks out, and add plants. plants just make the tank look better.

you also need to get water conditioners for when you do water changes because the fish cant live in water with chlorine. you need tap water conditioner, and stress coat. you can keep about max. of 12 1 inch fish in a 10 gallon depending on what filter you have. a bio wheel is a good enough filter to have 12.

I hadn't ever thought of putting live plants in until I read some of Robyn's stuff. What are the pros/cons of live plants? Since I really don't know what I'm doing, will they make my life easier or harder? Should I stick with fake ones for now?

well i started off with live plants and now its all fake. they bring up oxygen levels in the tank but are hard to take care of and need good lighting. i just use fake so i dont have to replace them. i recomend only fake for begginers. its good to see that you are using Robyns great site for help. It helped me get started too.

Thanks! It's reassuring to hear that fake is easier! I'm sure live ones do make nice additions, but I think I'll stick with fake for now. After all, I first need to find out if we can all keep it responsibly. With the kids only 7, 5 & 4, all the work will be up to me for a while.

you are looking for an easy setup so the fish i listed above are your best options.

What do you mean by "breed alot" - and which ones? I think I'd like to avoid having to find homes for babies at first. I don't feel comfortable enough yet at transporting to even take these plecos out of the tank, so the thought of knowingly planning to have to catch and transport more is a little scary.

when i had aquariums, i always used zebra danios to begin with.

fake plants are probably the best bet, while more expensive, they are always colorful and never die. i have some fake plants in my pond along with the real plants.

Vacuuming: It is actually just a siphon you want. Most any pet store/walmart will have them in varying sizes.

Starting fish: I am sure that Tommy is right about danios, the only thing to consider is the sort of water you have. If you have water suitable for danios, by all means go for it. However, it is tough to recommend one way or another without knowing exactly what sort of water you have.

You can have most any sort of fish with any sort of water provided you are willing to use numerous water treatments to change the condition to suit the fish you want. In my opinion, it is just a lot more work than picking a more suitable fish.

Breeding: A lot of the easy to keep, cycling resistant fish out there are also easy to breed. Guppies are among them, as are most other livebearers, certain sorts of minnows etc.

It is tougher. You need special foods, probably a special divider to keep the parents from eating them, and they are more delicate when it comes to water condition.

Plants: Well, they can be beneficial in the following ways that I know of:

Increase oxygen in the tank.

Give the fish good cover.

Give the fish a readily replenishing food source in some cases.

Help filter the tank.

But they can be a problem in the following ways:

Make the tank a bit more difficult to clean.

Tend to introduce algae into a tank if you don't already have it.

Some require specialized tank conditions.

If they die they can be hazardous to the fish.

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Honestly, I prefer fake as well. I have one real plant bulb right now, and it is doing reasonably well. Still, my pleco likes to pick it up and move it around the tank and "trim" it every now and then.

The guppies are the notorious breeders. They're worse than rabbits!!! The female can give birth to up to 20 or more at once. It's insane but it IS a very good educational experience for the kids. My kids loved it. Like someone mentioned before...your water conditions will no doubt play a huge role in what you decide to do as far as stocking the tank. Robyn is right about sterilizing the tank, get NEW gravel & decorations. The live plants are lovely but you have to feed them aquarium plant food or they die & drastically increase the amounts of ammonia & stuff in the tank & that can be very harmful to most fish. Been there done that. For someone that has alot of time & $ to invest live plants are great. I'd love to get some swordplant but I don't wanna have to maintain it as my schedule is super busy already. Both of my tanks are very low maintenance...no heaters or fancy filters & all my fish are fine. You have been getting great suggestions from everyone.

So if I want to avoid babies, should I (after I get my water tested), only get 1 of each type of fish? Can they tell at the store which are female and which are male? Or are fish kind of like mice? My older brother had 2 male mice (according to the salesperson) when we were little - then almost 100 babies :o before my parents managed to give them all away. After that it was only 1 mouse at a time.

From what everyone has said though, if I only start with 1 fish, that will make cycling the tank take longer. Maybe I'll get lucky with my water and I can have 1 guppie and 1 danio and 1 minnow.

I'll start calling this morning to find a pet store that will take my plecos today. Maybe I can get started tonight. :P

i would wait longer than tonight. you still have to buy chemicals, nets, syphon, lid, and lights. tonight i would add water and use the chemicals like stress coat and tap water conditioner. then you can redecorate the tank and setup the lights and maybe even vacuum the gravel would be good. then in a in a day or 2 you should start thinking about fish. in a 10 gallon you should only add about 3 fish at the max at a time. the guppies dont really care if they are alone but the danios and minnows do like to be in schools. i think a female guppy instead of a male is better to buy, just make sure its not in a tank with males so it could be pregnant. The danios should be added first because the are very hardy. i would add 3, they will eat the eggs in a small tank. I would add the minnows 3-5 days after if the danios are doing well. they would eat the eggs too, and i would get 2, or 3. I would also think you should get a catfish for the bottom. i wouldnt add any more fish for the top. the danios are hardy so i would put them in any water. Depending on what your water quality is like i would recomend 3 smaller cories that stay about an inch long. I wouldnt get them untill the tank has been running for about a month, they are sensative to water quality. ottos are like mini plecos but they max out at about 2 inches. they are very sensative to. Ask the pet store to test ph, gh, amonia, nitrates, and nitrites. Please rember to ask about water quality. you cant get fish until you know your water quality. before you leave i would add water to the taank and when you come home add the conditioners and tell us your quality unless the guy at the store says it good for fish. do work on the tank tonight, danios tomorrow.

i wouldnt be worried about the fish having babies in a 10 gallon unless it is densley planted. i wouldnt keep those rocks in the tank, replace them with plants. What color is the gravel? some catfish like natural colored gravel and this is your last chance if you want to change gravel safetly. I wouldnt keep a danio by itself because they can get a little nippy.

I think JarrodRossi covered most of your questions pretty well, even referring to that recent "catch the pleco" thread.

The "biowheel" is not really a brand but I think MarineLand first developed them. They are basically pleated material (kind of like felt) where good bacteria can grow. They spin on the outflow of hang-on-tank or canister (output side) filters. Three of my four tanks have Marineland biowheels included with the filters. They seem to work well.

There are hoods that combine a filter and lighting so that would save one power plug. They are Marineland Eclipse hoods.

My page on plecos is at http://www.fishpondinfo.com/pleco.htm and includes information on feeding. Plecos probably will only eat flake food if they have no other choice. I would get some sinking algae wafers if you can fine them. The pleco foods have pleco photos on them.

I would add some tap water to your tank. It would be ideal to test the pH and hardness levels at the very least of both the tank and water before doing this to see how different that they are. Be sure to add dechlorinator. If you're unsure of the water quality, then you can add just a cup or two each day and check that they are still fine. If I were there caring for them for you, I would probably do a nearly 100% water change but would test for various things, heavily aerate, add various additives, etc.

There are actually many fish that can tolerate room temperature without a heater besides goldfish and guppies such as white cloud mountain minnows, zebra danios, paradise fish, rosy red minnows, various native fish, and many more. If there's a chance that the room will go below the temperature that the fish you choose prefer, then you should have a heater. In general, that's going to be 60-70 degrees for the less cold tolerant of the above-mentioned fish so you probably need a heater.

robyn she is returing the plecos to the pet store today.

You know, there were multiple pages of responses, and I didn't read the other pages. I just read them, although no time anyone to read them word for word.

I vacuum the gravel with a Python Clean and Fill and now another brand is hooked into it (forget the brand though).

If you don't want fry, avoid livebearers. Most egg-laying fish, even if they lay eggs, are going to eat all their babies if you do nothing. Most store employees aren't going to know enough to be able to sex the fish, except for maybe guppies. Also, often the fish there are too young to sex as of yet. I wouldn't get just one of the schooling sorts of fish, get a few (4+ is normally good but this limits your overall number of fish that you have room for in the end) so they aren't stressed from being without a school.

female guppies arent that colorful any way.

You may want to keep in mind that female guppies are capable of storing sperm. It is entirely possible that you could get just one and end up with fry anyway if the guppy in question has had previous contact with males.