has anyone ever given some birds alka-seltzer? there stomach explodes and they just fall over but who cares birds are annoying anyways lol

Hehehehehehehehe. I did that once. ONCE! :mellow:

i once did something which involved a cow, and a stick of dynamite ( dont ask me where i got it, because i cant remember). lets just say it was very messy. i was a bit wasted at the time, so i dont hold myself responsible for my actions.

That, my friend, is animal cruelty if it causes the Animal harm if it was your intention. And I am sure it was your intention for the animal's stomach to explode. Wasn't it? WASN'T IT?! D<

ive never done anything like that since, i am now reformed. i love animals, cept sloths. lazy bastards.

Okay now, crap, despite this being off topic, how were you able to say that without it being bleeped out? D<

why would it need to be bleepd out, its not rude or anything.

Yeah, I know. But usually swears are censored. D: Are you... Are you magic?

no but if i was, id use it to make it so that people couldnt be cruel to animals.

I ONLY DID IT ONCE! IT WAS AN ACCIDENT! OR WAS IT? :akuma:
Just kidding I love animals.

It disturbs me to no end to hear about people involved in any situations where animal cruelty is present, especially STUPID ASS acts like blowing up cows (which I highly doubt your telling the truth about just because where the heck would you ever have the chance to a: get the dynamite (which was conveinently forgotten) and b: have the chance to get a cow alone and blow it up with NOBODY noticing) and also making birds explode.

I also completely do not understand how people can claim to go from sadistic assholes who do such things to all of a sudden be animal lovers. That just doesn't make any sense, its like saying "one time I killed somebody just to see what it was like, but now I'm a huge humanitarian and I love all people". I am very dissapointed and also angered by the fact that you (teruraku) said this and as soon as I post this I am editing my post for the fill out thingy that lists you as one of my favorite members.

If anybody doesn't like what I said thats tough, and I'd be more than willing to have it out with them over this issue because it is something not only fundamental to my religious faith but also one of my own core personal principles.

I agree with ehr on most points, plus one that states something like, Teraku man sloths aer awsome, I actually mold my life around the sloth, and along with Emu's and Penguins they are my favorite animal.

I can say with the exception of mosqitoes, probebly a few ants, and some flies (maybe some other small bugs which I could not differentiate from those mentioned above I have never killed an animal.

Even myself, who loves guns has never been hunting. I have fired quite a few weapons in my life but never at an animal.

I will say this though, animals are tasty and I dont quite love them enough to stop eating them but killing em with dynamite is somewhat sick.

i guess i should have thought this through. the event i desrcibed never happened. i was just mucking around, sometimes i try to make a joke, and people think im being serious. id never to that to anything. im not that sort of person. im sorry if i offended anyone. but i still think sloths are lazy though. i want to be one. im very lazy and stupid, and from what i said, you all know that its true. im stupid. sorry.

Its ok we still love you man, as long as you learned some lesson from this....or something.

Alas voice tone doesnt carry well over the internet and its hard to tell when someone is kidding around.

oh i definately learnt a lesson, not to stuff around. from now on, no more tall stories for me. ever. they always come back to bite me in the ass.

I have never once harmed an animal intentionally. Or for "fun". I just give my animals the regular slap on the nose and "Go away! DD<" if they go through my stuff, attempt destruction upon what I wear on my feet, or enter my room. Nothing horrible that I'd consider "Animal Cruelty". Anyone harming an animal for fun makes me twitch and feel the need to bust a brick on their face.

OMG THAT'S FUNNY XD I like giving them rice just doesn't work as good but rice is cheaper >_>

It's possible to be an animal lover and be a hunter just not to be and animal lover and be a person that blow up birds when they're bored.

I love animals. And the only reason I did that is because I had no idea birds don't like alka. I was only five at the time. It's not like i'm the only one who did somthing stupid when they were young. It's almost imposible not to mess up when your young. -_-

This reminds me of when I was a toddler. I tried pulling my goldfish out of the tank to eat them alive. ;_;

Teruraku, thanks for the apology and I'm quite relieved that you were making up that dynamite story. I appreciate the fact that you took this without getting all defensive and trying to defend animal cruelty. You're back on my list :lol:

Okay, Knux Stravier,....wow....how the hell can you argue that it is possible to be an animal lover and also be a hunter?! But its not okay to be an animal lover and blow up birds. Unless you didn't notice hunting and blowing up birds both have the same effect; IT KILLS THE ANIMAL! I'm sure you're thinking "Well just because I hunt some animals doesn't mean I am cruel to them all", well let me explain something that you obvioulsly don't understand about what it means to be an animal lover:

Animal lovers and animal rights activists aren't out there to protect "cute" animals. Thats not what its about, its about respecting animals, ALL ANIMALS, as fellow creatures that inherently have the right to live on this planet free of cruelty or victimization. For example I personally do think birds are kinda weird and I don't like them, but just because I don't think they're cute and fuzzy doesn't mean I have the right to go and explode one or shoot one.

Thus, a true animal lover respects the right of all creatures to live and be respected, how can you then justify going out and shooting something. AND PLEASE do not even try to use the lame ass excuse "well we eat the meat" because we are no longer cavemen, they have things now-a-days called GROCERY STORES, you don't need to go out and kill animals to get sustinence anymore. People who use that as a justification for hunting animals just make themselves look even more stupid.

ps: Considering my position it may come as a surprise to some of you that I am not a vegetarian. How is that not hypocritcal you ask? I think its natural for all carnivores or omnivores (such as we humans are) to eat meat. BUT there is a right way and wrong way. Eating meat has always been part of human life and diet, but cramming animals into tiny cages and making them lead horrible lives before we kill them is not the way to get your protein for the day. I don't eat veal or any pork products because of the AMAZINGLY horrible ways these products are processed, but I will sometimes eat organic beef or chicken because although we are ultimately killing the animal to eat it, at least it has a normal life before it is killed, and I think thats the way it should be. Thats how it is in nature, there is not tragedy when a wild animal eats another one because it was a natural process in which both animals were allowed a choice, they weren't plucked out of filthy tiny caged and beat to death with a baseball bat prior to consumption (sadly that is not an exageration, and if you think it is go to peta.org). Also the animals rasied on organic farms and killed humanely aren't wild animals, and thats why I am so against hunting. The domestic animal was raised for the express purpose that it would one day be eaten, whereas killing a wild healthy animal while hunting can and does distrupt the entire ecosystems.

I think if people eat meat sparingly and make good informed and hopefully organic choices when doing so its okay. I have nothing against vegitarians, its just that ultimately I don't think becoming a vegetarian is an effective way to change the meat industry because there will ALWAYS be meat eaters no matter how many vegetrians there are. I think a better choice is to be politcally active and help spread awareness of the cruelty of the mainstream meat industry and spread word about and support alternative cruelty free options. This way we don't have to obstain from an important part of our natural diet but we also don't degrade ourselves or the animals we eat.

sorry my posts get so long, I just have a lot to say :D

Wow now that's a very long post. :o

People were meant to hunt weather you accept that or not it has been a part of human history for a VERY long time and probably will not change until the earth is destroyed by us.

A hunter can respect what they've been hunting. I do when I go out. And I just don't kill random animals for no reason.

Blowing up birds isn't really out of cruelty it's for fun. And it is diffrent than hunting in so many ways. Pretty much the only same thing is fun.

I appreciate your opinion Knux, and don't get me wrong everyone has a right to think what they want, BUT that was possibly the WORST defense for and argument I have ever heard, so please sit back while I tear it too shreads :)

Your first "point" that people were meant to hunt: Of course humans were meant to hunt, humans are carnivores, without it humans would never had survived as a species just like other carnivores wouldn't have survived if they didn't hunt. I was never arguing that hunting is intrinsically wrong. Clearly you missed a few things that have drastically changed over the the last...oh....two thousand years. First off just because earlier humans had to hunt to survive doesn't explain in the least why modern day humans have to. As I pointed out earlier they have these crazy new fangled thing-a-ma-gigs these days, clearly you've never heard of them but they're called SUPER MARKETS. Yeah believe it or not if you want to eat meat now-a-days you don't have to go out and kill it yourself anymore, I know its shocking but try to let that fact sink in, its already available for you and has come from a source which is part of a closed ecosystem, in other words, from animals bred in environments which are not natural for the express purpose of consumption, therefore when they are slaughtered it doesn't effect the wild ecosystem whatsoever.

Your second "point" that you can respect the animals you're hunting and that you just don't go around killing animals for no reason: I fail to understand how you can truly respect something when you fully intend the whole time you are "respecting it" to kill it right after. Seriously, it doesn't make ANY sense. Like I talked about in my last post, real animal lovers respect and treat ALL animals with dignity. So you claim you're an animal lover? Well you don't go around shooting, and gutting dogs but its fine to kill deer/pheasent/duck/insert victims name here. That logic just doesn't make sense, by definition animal lovers respect and love all animals not just some. And your whole argument about you don't kill them for no reason is also logically faulty. I think when there are a hundred foods you could buy in a grocery store to fill your stomach, going out and killing a deer is PRETTY DAMN POINTLESS.

Your third "point" about exploding birds is cruel but hunting is not: I agree with you about the birds, it is totally motivated out of cruelty plain and simple. But so is hunting bceause there is no real reason that humans have to hunt anymore as I just talked about with the grocery store example. If you weren't able to hunt, you wouldn't starve, you have to realize your hunting is a want, not a need, and when you want something rather than legitimately need it, even though you might enjoy it, theres no real reason for it. That goes for anything, like you may want a big mansion but when you could survive just fine in a little house theres no real reason for the mansion, just like there is no longer a need or reason to hunt wild animals. Sure humans hunted for centuries, because they HAD to, you hunt because its fun, why exactly is it fun? Because you "beat" the animal, you won (which I might add nowadays with all the high powered rifles and gadgetry is not as hard as it was back in the day when all you had was a bow and arrow) and thats seems pretty cruel to me. Its cruel because your satisfaction and happiness with the hunt is totally contingent on the animals suffering and death. I bet you don't think its as fun when you go out and you don't get anything, thus my point is self evident, hunting is cruel because it depends on the suffering of other creatures and serves aboslutely no need in modern society.

Of course it wouldn't make sense to you if you never hunted. If you did you would understand that it's fun. Secondly it's an animal a dumb creature that relies on its instincts for survival. And it's not pointless deer you hunt and from the store taste way diffrent. The animal isn't suffering it doesn't even know what the word means hunting now a days with these 'high powered rifles and gadgetry' keeps it from suffering before it dies since it kills it pretty quickly if not instantly. If anything hunting in the past with bow and arrows and muskets was cruel whats done today isn't. You can respect and kill an animal just because you somehow blatantly fail grasp that fact does not make it false.

So an animal that relies on its instincts is stupid?

Congrats you just summed up hunting according to what you just said.

If you want to hunt an animal make it a man, then you will have a little challenge. You dont have to shoot them with bullets paint ball is pretty popular nowa days (and a hell of alot cheaper then a high powered rifle)

I dont care if people hunt where I am, as long as they are not idiots. I say this because many of the people here get there entires winter meat through hunting. I live in a fairly small community with many moutin based houses, farms, and the like sourounding. I know for a fact my cousins (an avid hunter) could probebly not make it to any form of super market come winter time. AT least if he could it would be a diffciult task. However in that same respect this is the same man that told me outright that hunting an animal serves little to know fun, or pourpose unless you are in a specific situation. I belive this, its no fun to hunt an animal. Even you said it Knux, they rely on insticts, so obviously you should be able to beat this animal every time (less you were foolish and cant outsmart instincts?)

You see I do not mind hunting when its done by a rational person in an understanding situation. I do not mind raising a pig and eventualy haveing to kill it for the meat, I do not mind many of the things that have to be done on a farm, it is a way of life that is so difficult many times the only real money you get is what you can scrape up by selling what you grow or produce, and 90% of your food, milk, etc is procured from the farm itself.

Ultimatly it boils down to this for me. I am a gun enthusiast, I am in probebly moving to colerado, North Carolina or minnesota, and train as a gunsmith after high school. It has always been a dream job of mine to work with what I know, and thats guns. However, I dont think there will ever be a day in my life when I hunt. Even if I did track down an animal with all my might, I would never shoot the thing, what exactly is the fun in that. Its easy to pull a trigger Knux, and lastly I know the joy of shooting, I know it fairly well. There is a great feeling running through your body when you have a guns grip in your hands. When you are holding the trigger and aiming and ultimatly when you pull that trigger. However I think if you have no need to hunt shooting at targets is just as joyful.

I feel very strongly about many things, and hunting and animal cruelty is one of them, but I can see that you're not going to listen to argument Knux, and you hvae that right if you so wish, so I'm not gonna go on and on like I do on some posts about this issue.

I agree with NGC points (move to minnesota NGC, thats where I live!) if you like the sporty side of hunting you should try paintball or something. I think its kinda offensive to our fellow creatures when you refer to them as "dumb animals". You might not have thought about this, but humans are animals too and I happen to know of some very stupid ones, but that doesn't mean I get to go out and shoot them all. Also people's ideas about animals are completely based on cultural norms, not a clear factual boundary between what is a "dumb animal" and what is not. Read something by Sahlins (an anthropologist if you want to know something more about this), basically you justify hunting and killing deer because they are "dumb animals" but you wouldn't go around hunting horses or dogs. In reality there is nothing inherently wrong with eating these animals (many societies do) but because in our culture they are considered closer to us because they are pets we don't usually eat them. But to somebody else (me being one) talking about deer like they're worthless and killing and eating them could be as offensive to them as killing and eating a dog would to you. This all comes back to my original point; YOU CAN'T SAY YOU'RE AN ANIMAL LOVER IF YOU TREAT DIFFERENT ANIMALS WITH DIFFERENT LEVELS OF RESPECT FOR ARBITRARY REASONS, which you clearly do because you hunt deer and refer to them as "dumb animals".

I think your point about hunters in the distant past who used bows and arrows being more cruel is absolutely ridiculous. They hunted because their very survival depended on it. They would literally die of hunger (especially in colder regions) if they didn't hunt. So they had a real reason to hunt, the majority of hunters today (there are some exceptions as NGC pointed out) hunt because its fun. Killing indiscriminately and for no real reason is a heck of a lot crueler in my book than hunting to survive.

ive never been hunting but im not completly against it though. down Here in australia we have a problem with feral animals, especially with foxes and feral cats. because they kill indigenous native species and have nearly wiped out some species, such as the Bilby, and native birds. also, we have feral pigs, and camels. and rabbits. not forgeting the Cane toad, so im for hunting to get rid of these, but against it, in the aspect of it being used for fun and sport.

I'm the one not listening? You're the one that can't grasp simple facts.

What does paintball have to do with hunting? Are you saying I should go shoot animals with a paintball gun? Hunting is killing animals not shooting at humans with balls of paint. And again it's not the same as you obviously don't understand.

So it's not curel to use a bow and arrow to hunt for food even though the animal is still getting shot with a pointy stone and still suffering since it's not an instand death? Hunting with guns can prevent that, that's why it isn't cruel.

And Native Americans hunted with respect for the animal. If you deny that then you must be brain dead. They also hunted for honor.

Also, you don't hunt dogs because they're domesticated and some wouldn't run or fight back when getting shot at. No offense, but think about things before you say them.

I'm the one talking to myself? You didn't even READ the posts by NGC and myself, clearly, or you would have known that we suggested paintball with humans as an alternative to hunting because you still get to have fun hunting something, but nobody has to die in order for it to be fun. Seriously, we both stated that clearly, and you thought we were talking about using paintball guns on animals, and I'm the one not paying attention, right......

I still mantain that modern day hunting is cruel vis a vis hunting for survival in the olden days. Why? Because even though rifles kill the animal quicker its not just about how the animal dies that determines whether something is cruel or not. Like most things in life, what you do doesn't determine an actions acceptability, its your intentions. People who used to hunt to keep themselves ALIVE, you hunt because its fun not because you would starve if you didn't. Its like the classic example: stealing is considered wrong, but if a man steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving children then its not the same. You see, hunting and killing animals is never nice for the animal, but at least people in the past who hunted had a real reason to do it, and today's hunters don't. Sure you might think its "fun" but thats hardly a justification for hunting. Having lots of money is fun, but juse because it is doesn't mean I can go rob a bank.

"And Native Americans hunted with respect for the animal. If you deny that then you must be brain dead. They also hunted for fun, and honor."

Seriously, don't go there with me. If I could swear on this board right now without getting kicked off I would tear you apart. I AM part Native American, a large part of my family still live on reservations. So I don't need some punk to lecture me about my own people's ways. Especially somebody who has no idea what the hell they are talking about. They didn't hunt for fun, they hunted to fricking SURVIVE, obviously you don't get it. They would never kill an animal just for fun, not only would that be an atrocious act in their communities, animals have far too much spiritual importance to be used for our amusement. And to say that hunting was a source of honor tells me you know NOTHING about Native American socieites other than what you have learned from sterotypes in pop culture.

My point about not hunting dogs was to prove that what animals you do hunt is a random choice. I think its funny that you said we don't shoot dogs because they don't fight back, so that would imply that you think deer are simply ferocious and we have to kill them before they kill us? What a moronic argument.

Still not paying attention I see, I said hunting and paintball are diffrent you don't hunt humans in paintball you shoot each other in the face with a ball of paint. Being out on a paintball field looking for people that you know the basic area that they are in is way diffrent than hiding in the wild waiting for your prey to come up. Something you probably won't understand.

"animals have far too much spiritual importance to be used for our amusement."

So they respected them seeing as they had importance, so I thank you for proving my point, exactly.

And I was using that as an example why people hunt, for instance look at teraku's post a bit up there.

And to say the 'strongest warrior' or best hunter was not a reason to hunt then that would be a lie just because your part inuit doesn't mean you know everything about every native american culture so don't even give me that ####ing bullshit. It's like me saying since I'm part German I know exactly what every european's culture is like.

Dude you just made yourself look like an idiot, even when she spells it out ofr you, a simple minded person like yoruself cannot understand it?

First of all she admited I'm right second of all I seemed to tell her so you need to pay attention and do you need me to spell it out for you?

Okay...this is the point were I could completely freak out about the fact that you are not only completely ignorant but also extremely rude or as NGC stated, just let it go and accept the fact that you are a simple minded person. I think I will do a bit of both.

Chill out about the paintball thing, it was just a suggestion. Anyone would think we asked you to go out and hunt your mom the way you reacted. It was just a suggestion. Last time I checked the point of paint ball was not to go around hitting people in the face though...that would really hurt and would be no fun.

Clearly, as I look back over this whole argument, it is clear to me that A: You never understood my opinion I can tell because of the things you said, for example you go on and on about trying to prove hunters can respect their prey. I never outwardly denied this, I said that modern day hunters who are motivated by fun instead of necessity are cruel because they are killing an animal for no particular reason. And B: that you also never really thought out your own argument, its all over the place, you repeat yourself and at the same time manage to contradict yourself which is, I must say, a staggering achievement of stupidity.

Don't try to pull Teruraku into this, hes a kick ass guy and you are an idiot. He was talking about exterminating foreign species that should never have been introduced into the ecosystem anyway and their presence is destorying the indigenous wildlife. In this whole thing others have raised real reasons as to why they or other have a reason to hunt, Teruruaku's example about feral pigs and such ruining the natural Australian environment, NGC mentioned he lives in a rural area and people hunt so they can eat during the long winters, and even I said that hunters in the past had to hunt to survive, but all you can come up with is the lame argument that you do its cuz its fun and that proves my whole point that theres is no way you and people like you can call themselves animal lovers.

Okay, now I have a right to get a little pissed. Do you fuc***g know me? No you do not, therefore how the hell do you think you have the right to tell me what I do and do not know about Native American history? Did I ever claim to know it all? No I did not, but because my family is Inuit, my best friend since birth is Crow, and I have several other close friends who are Pueblo, Lakota and Navajo, and the fact that I have studied Native American history and culture as my fricking major for four years in college does allow me to assume that I know just a little bit more about it than a fifteen year old white kid who lives in Florida.

Its funny to me that you claim I am generalizing all Native American societies when I say they hunt first and foremost out of necessity, but you do not see how you are generalizing when you assume that all Native Americans have a "strongest warrior" category. You probably saw Pocahontas a couple times now you think your a fuc***g P.H.d of Native Studies. Once again, did I ever deny that skilled hunters were respected in Native cultures? No, once again because clearly you can't fricking read, I did not. You made the ignorant ass claim that Native Americans used to hunt for fun and honor. They hunted because they had to eat! The one who could best hunt and therefore best provide for his family was esteemed for his skills, but it has never been a part of ANY Native culture to glorify the killing of animals for fun, they only killed what they needed, its dumb ass hicks like you who go out and kill like 6 bucks in the prime of their lives so you can say your a tough person and then mount their heads on your walls. Oh and newsflash, a warrior is not a hunter, they fight PEOPLE not defenseless animals.

As far as I am concerned I am done with this debate, because you so nicely made yourself look like and ignorant ass to anybody with half a brain on this board, there is now no point in me doing that anymore. Congrats

Wow stupid answer yet, if there was a stupid award it would be yours hands down.

I didn't 'over react' about the paintball statement I said you didn't understand the diffrence which you have proved through out this whole 'arguement' if that's what you can call your lame ass reasons.

Saying I didn't understand your opinions was plain and simply retarded you tried stating a fact that no hunter could respect thier prey which you seem to be contradicting yourself. Since you did say native americans loved animals and they hunted them too.

I never tried pulling people into this if anyone it was you talking about did you not read mine and ngc's post about paintball that seem to have brought him into it. I was simply using his reason as an example. He hunts to defend his home and ecosystem from 'animals that weren't supposed to be there'. And I'm the one proving myself to be an ass? This arguement wasn't about animal lovers being able to be hunters retard.

Insulting people? Wow you really have sunk lower than I thought you could have. I commend you though, on that lame attempt at an insult calling me white and telling me I live in florida? Seriously I think you can do better than that. I was using strongest warrior as an example, I, unlike you, have a life and don't study for aguements over the internet. Saying people don't want to get honor is dumb thanks for proving yourself again. All people want to be honored no matter what thier race.
And since you insulted me twice I'm going to stop arguing to I guess since you proved me right, then sunk very low. But your arguement was cute.

Edit: Also calling people stupid because they don't want to study the same thing as you is dumb. I bet I know much more about computer programming and video game design than you but I don't call you dumb because you don't know as much as me about it. That's like Bill gates calling Shakespeare(spelling?) an idiot because they are genius's of a diffrent sort.

I'm going to be the bigger person and suggest we bury the hatchet amicably here Knux. When I calmed down and read back over all this, half the time I got angry at you was for stuff you didn't really say, and half the defending you did was in defence of something I never attacked.

Of course I don't think everyone should study the same things I do, if they did it would be a very boring world. Its just like you so aptly pointed out in your point about knowing about computer programming, people are smart about different things. Its just that I wouldn't get into a debate with you over C++ or Javascript because I would be BSing the whole time, I just felt like that at times you were trying to argue with me about things (particularly the Native American thing) that you didn't know much about either.

Either way your right about insulting each other. It was uncalled for and childish, my only excuse was that I was royally agitated. I hope you can accept this apology of sorts and that we can both move on from this without disliking each other, because even though I disagreed with nearly everything you said, I do admire the fact that you at least had the balls to stand up what you believed in.

ps: that picture in your signature is hilarious

Mine as well bury it, I don't think either of us were going to change our mind about the subject anyways.

I didn't know that much about some of the stuff I said anyways :) incase you didn't notice.

And I gotta apologize too, I insulted you in that last post I just edited it out a little while later most of the things I put weren't very nice >_>

and about the picture I feel bad for that guys family...evil ninjas :D

On this note, I am gonna let a majorty of this thread be an argument between three fairly intelgent people and close this. If people have a problem PM, it just seems we have strayed a little off topic and well, it was fun but everyone seems to be happy now and thats the way it should be.