Hey Guys!

You know I love you all, but quite frankly lately this board has been a bit boring. Probably because its summer now and people are out and doing stuff, not sitting at home in front of the computer. But I am always at work, so I thought I'd start a topic that would insure that there was plenty of new posts for me to read when I'm bored at work.

I thought the prefect remedy would be a good ol debate, we haven't really had one on here recently. I do want to say though, that I am looking for an educated debate, not to pick a fight, so please no personal attacks/rude comments or out and out spamming please. I think a good topic for debate would be the legalization of gay marriage in America. (Again people, please don't freak out, its just a debate, nobody's life is at stake!).

If you've read any of my posts on this board it is pretty clear I am a liberal, and as such it is not surprising that I am pro gay rights and for the legalization of gay marriage. However, I don't think this just because I am a liberal that I am echoing everything that liberal's believe, I am primarily for gay marriage because I don't think I have any right to tell somebody else what to do with their life, especially with something as personal as their love life. I am aware that a lot of people think that if gay marriage is legalized it will be the beginning of the end of marriage as a "sacred institution", but gays that I know aren't mounting this fight to undermine Christian ideas about marriage, they're doing it because they love each other and since they are commited as any hetero couple (sometimes far more committed) they want to be able to have the same legal rights that hetero couples have.

I just think by not letting gay people marry legally they aren't suddenly going to go away, so why not let them have this small right granted? And to people who are adament about marriage being for a man and woman I say this; what if we lived in some bizarro world and the norm was gay marriage, and the weird thing was straight marriages, how would you feel if somebody told you you couldn't marry the person you loved? I just don't think its fair to allow crazy drunk people who don't love each other to get married in a snap like in Vegas, but to tell committed couples who have been together for years and cherish each other that they can't because they were both born as men or women, and say its because marriage is a "sacred institution", even though 60% of marriages end in divorce.

"The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation." Pierre Elliot Trudeau

Agree. It's not the government's right to choose who marries who. The thing that worries me is illegal immigrants marrying other men/women just to get a greencard. It gives them a bigger opprotunity(spelled that wrong I assume) to gain citizenship in this country. (Such as a mexican man marrying an american man)

personally i think the whole religious argument is a joke. who gives marriage lisences. the state. who decides how old people have to be to get married. the state. who makes marriages official. the state. and correct me if im wrong (and im not), but i believe there is something called the seperation of church and state, meaning whatever the church thinks can not be applied to government

I couldn't agree more with this, and not just pertaining to gay marriage either. I am concerned with the blurring of this boundary that the Bush administration has employed in many areas. Theres absolutely nothing wrong with having a faith and believing in its tennants, but this shouldn't affect the way the country is run.

One example, besides the whole gay marriage issue, was and is Bush's stance on stem cell research. He has stated that he is against open exploration of this new technology that could save and dramatically improve millions of lives because of ethical reasons, i.e its wrong to use human stem cells from unborn embryos. To me this is a religious justification, and I don't think that should have any bearing in such an important political decision. Back before the 04' election in a debate between Bush and Kerry they debated on this very issue. To summarize Kerry said that even though he is a strong Catholic he does not believe that his own personal religious beliefs should have any bearing in this important issue, and was therefore for exploration of gene therapy through stem cell research. This I think is a healthy stance to have on issues like these, to realize that one can have and practice their own religion, but to realize you don't bring its influence to the table when deciding on important political issues.

Some people out there might not get what the big deal is about the blurring going on between religion and state, because after all most of the tennants of Christianity are accepted norms anyway, such as no killing etc etc. But this is a big issue because not only was our country founded on this very principle, but its also disturbing to see because it opens the door for all kinds of totalitarian situation and scenarios. Country's that have theorcractic governments are usually the most corrupt and the most restricting and are almost always run by dictators, and although these individual cirucmstances of mixing of church and state don't yet allow for a theocracy, its exactly through situations like these that leaders in power start to think that not only is it accpetable to impose religion on government, but that that is the way it should be.

ps: About the whole green card thing: Believe it or not the INS makes it really hard for immigrants to marry people just to get a green card and then divorce once they get it. A few of my best friends are from Venezuela, and even though they've lived here almost their entire lives they are still trying to get a green card. Also I work with a girl from Russia whose friend from Russia tried to come to America by marrying an American guy (it was just a sham so she could get a green card), but the INS has lengthy interviews and follows you around in your daily life to observe you to make sure the relationship is legit. If they realize its not you can be prosecuted for immigration fraud which is a bid deal and a felony. My point is, I don't really think the legalization of gay marriage would really have an impact on this, there might be more immigrants marrying gay Americans, but if they really do love each other and want to get married they should be able to just like straight immigrants can marry Americans and become citizens.

but with Gay marriage, who decides whos the Bride and whos the groom? do they flip a coin or something? thats probably a stupid question...

I don't think they think of themselves as bride and groom, because obviously they aren't two different sexes, so why would they be interested in assuming the role of two different sexes? I've been to a couple commitment ceremonies, one was for a lesbian couple and the other for a gay couple. The lesbian couple both wore dresses and the guys both wore suits. I think a lot of times straight people, because they're so used to thinking of marriage in terms of a man role and a woman's role, that they often wonder "who is gonna be the "man" and who is going to be the "woman" in this marriage?" In reality they don't think about it that way because they aren't trying to act like a woman or man, they're just being themselves.

Well... If I were married to someone of my gender, I'd like to wear a tux. But then, that's just being myself.

This is a touchy subject. Gays are going to marry whether the government or the state likes it or not. Nothing we say can really effect anything. So I normally don't bother debating about it. But if I had to choose, I'd be pro-gay marriages. Although I have nothing good to add onto this topic. Sorry.