That's the question I pose...

What do beasts really need in our army book, and lets see if GW can give that to us in our new book.

I will start by saying...

If we retain herds in their current or relatively current incarnation 5 wide min ranking is required, period.

Cheaper bestigors would be nice, or at least give them shields to start.

Give us a reason to take shields with the stupid herd box.

Centigors going core, and new models.

Some bigger beasts...

Also I would like to see some more troops with thrown weapons. Doesn't seem like any armor uses a lot of thrown weapons and to me our Germanic theme would be cool to put thrown weapons into. Thrown axes for the gors and slings for the ungors. Even the most basic child know how to use these things.

I'd go with javelins on the ungor.

I would like to see ambushing become more viable, and flails on more stuff.

New models for centigors? Why? :unsure:

Because the current ones cost 45 dollars for 5? Personally I would prefer to have plastics for them.

Doubtful to happen. You never need more than 12 though, so I don't think it's even an issue. Compared to our need of....every other special choice, and dragon ogres, and the shamans, and bestigors, and likely chariots....I don't think it's really an issue.

Need:
-Updated herd rules, but maintaining feel.
-Vastly improved bestigors and shaggoth, whether that be with a rules overhaul or a price drop and slight adjustment (marks etc..)
-Updated models for everything that hasn't been updated in 6th edition or more recently.
-Incentive to take different monster units.
-Improved and expanded magic items.
-Improved leadership, or ways to compensate for low leadership (immunity to terror in a unit, a cheap bound spell with oxen stands, etc..)
-Flyers, or if not...ambush improved to the point where it's better than having flyers.

Honestly one thing I would want to see is that if you ambush a unit and it connects with another unit when it comes in, it counts as charging. Basically so people can't just sit on the table edge ...

Upgraded marks and better monster units.

decker_cky hit on most of the points I feel beasts need.

The only other thing I would like is at least one beast herd being able to take a magic banner up to 25pts. This would allow you to take a re-roll panic banner, warbanner, or +1LD ambush banner on a herd.

I feel the army needs a unit of flyers (harpies or gargoyles) and ambush needs to be made worthwhile. It really bothers me that we have this cool special army ability, that is pretty poor and other armies have a MUCH better version of the same thing(Skaven and TK can charge on the turn they come up, Dwarves can use the anvil on miners to get them to charge, etc). While we come on, sit there, get panicked off the table and are fairly ineffective.

I would also like to see that when a herd goes unruly, it doesn't have to test for fear/terror on the declared charge. I think thats more in-line with the whole unruly thing. We''l show em, charge!

One other thing I would REALLY like is some way to counter/take on a Dragon/GD. These are becoming more and more common and that flying 20" range makes it all but impossible to compete against them.

I say we should have some sort of Dragon or Greater Daemon. Forest Beasts Spirit, or something along those lines maybe? Just something along those lines would be great.

I don't think something at the GD/Dragon level is needed at all. Something like our suggested chimaera would be nice.

Ohhh, that reminds me of a few more.

-Ability to take multiple terror causers on par with dark elves.
-Ability to make viable army relying on beastmen (so mostly beast herds, bestigors, chariots and centigors), medium beasts (doombull type armies), or monsters.
-Ability to take Daemon Princes as general.
-Ability to summon some generic daemons would be nice.
-Access to magical attacks, flaming attacks and killing blow.

The thing in the woods is an awesome model, but by the looks of it at least I think it would be too close to a wargulf or something, wich would be pretty boring... :)

You could have super hounds that can only mark if near another beast unit... OR depending on the unit you assign them to they do different things. Skirmisher, or rank breaker... or etc. Kinda like a detachment...

Maybe unruly making a unit suffer frenzy?
Love for us to have a lot of chaotic feel, like mutations powerful but dangerous magic.

I was thinking hatred, rather than frenzy, but along a similar line. I think beasts magic should be very supportive and more about movement and combat.

I agree with darkstar. After playing beasts army with the frenzy causing spell from the slaanesh lore I think a lore that improves our combat potential, movement potential and helps deal with our lacking leadership would all be useful. Bound spell items with similar effects would also be useful.

oh yeah, and warhounds only cause panic for other warhounds....

And a monstery feel that would be sweet.

yeah that would be good because the only good current monsters are spawn,centigoprs and minotaurs

Erm....I know you want something more specialised, but there already is that in the lore of beasts.

Combat potential? Bear's Anger
Movement Potential? Wolf Hunts (though it admittedly doesn't affect everything in the army)
Lacking leadership? Oxen Stands
Dealing with big scaries (linked to lacking leadership)? Beast Cowers

Add in a few direct damage spells and voila!

I would like to see at least a bound version of oxen stands, though what I've been thinking of recently is a 50+ point bound item that functions for lore of beasts like the war altar does for lore of light. Give it a set bound power level 4, and it should be pretty balanced at 50 pts.

Just to further add to your argument, how about a magic missile bolt thrower (the hunter's spear) and a 2d6 str 3 range 24 magic missile (the crow's feast).

I really like the idea of the altar bound thing....

maybe a giant and shaggoth carrying the herdstone around between them ... okay, maybe not that :)

Range units, Maybe its just who the beast are without range, but I mean it gets kind of annoying getting picked on.

maybe 2 gors with a mobile mini-bolt thrower that can be put in a herd or on a chariot cos if those thick orcs can make somethin so can we

Even Orcs are smarter than Beasts. We're just a bunch of angry barnyard animals....

i still think its a good idea

Right now atleast. We could be anything within the realm of reason in 7th...I mean, daemons working together, wood elves having an uneasy treaty with the daemonic forces of athel loren...there is no reason we should be telling ourselves "well, that doesn't fit our fluff", because theres no garuntee our fluff will even resemble what we have now once our book comes out.

It would be cool if herds counted as having javelins/thrown axes in addition to their usual weapons, it would give some limited range effectiveness.

Can you imagine getting 13 str3, 7 str 4 shots as a stand and shoot reaction? :D

Skirmishers + thrown weapons = win :)

Also regarding the intelligence of beasts, they can make/use chariots with wheels, i'm sure they can handle an oversized bow :P

Most likely it would be a tradeoff. But can you imagine a few 5/5 throwing axe/javelin herds to harass while beefed up bestigors, core centigors and a combat herd deal with the fighting.

I just got goose bumps. Imagine that, a beastmen force swarming the enemy while peppering them with missile fire and barreling towards them with hard hitting anvil units.

Its almost like it's the way we should be.

That´s how skink armies play, I wouldn´t like that to go overboard...

I would be satisfied w. a few small changes:

Fixing of ranking up w. herds.

Allow ungors to buy Javelins, so we can deal w. things like fanatics.

Hounds don´t cause panic in other units.

Bestigors should have more equipment options, more than 1 unit can have mark & magic banner, put them down to 11 pts instead.

Chariots moved to special, but 2-1 choice.

Centigors moved to core, perhaps not let them count towards minimum core, or make herds a mainstay unit.

Fixing of ambush or let us have harpies.

Fix shaggoth to be worthwhile.

A few decent new magic items, a good armour, something to help w. LD.

After that I would be satisfied.

Honestly for shooting, chaos shouldn't be no shooting. It should be thrown weapons only and having skirmishing beastmen having thrown axes that count as double hand weapons is fine by me. Would make me take my normal herds, charge them up there, get my thrown off and charge next turn. Besides, Beastmen are skirmishers... thrown weapons are awesome imo and warhammer needs more of them.

And for the love of god... give bestigors goddamn shields...

I also would like to see cheap banners that are worthwhile to take. Bound items with lots of support spells on them. A lore than is combat/movement based support. Access to the lore of fire, death, shadow, beast, and life. Just because the lore is called "life" doesn't mean its a "nice person lore". Cheap marking on herds...

I also think point costs need to be reworked on centigors, I am sorry but 19 points for foot soldiers with cav move, with only a 5+ armor save, 4+ in hand to hand, if you don't use spears? When a unit of vanilla empire knights can get a 2+ armor-save for the just above the same cost and the absolute only difference is ours goes through forest? and then has a possibility for frenzy or stupidity? Hello? Does anyone see something wrong with that?

Make them cost 15 with shields period. +5 points to make them light cav with throwing axes +7-10 points to give them heavy armor. Lastly allow frenzy to work on their extra hoof attacks because they are not mounts they are foot soldiers and its part of their normal attacks. Retain all the normal foot soldier rules.

So basically, some minor buffs, most of which we needed years ago, and a rather large nerf, is enough? None of that would come close to breathing fresh air into our army, or letting us compete on a level comparable to new armies.

Unless we get poison, the shooting really won't be comparable to skinks.

Agreed, a few kills at close range? Besides the fact that sometimes are herds don't necessarily want to engage in combat when we can continue around to a flank harassed?

Not to mention unruly, which would become a real drawback for those units. ;)

Yea, and I am perfectly cool with unruly! I love the rule and honestly it hasn't been that much of an issue. Herds are fine, I would like to see them equipped with throwing axes/javelins for free if at all possible. I also would love to see shields being useful but they just aren't... a 6+ armor save is useless and too expensive for basic troops.

Unruly bites me in the ass every time I played herds against O&G recently.

I lost 3 recent games cos of my character herd unrulying towards a giant. The best being:
my 1st turn: unruly fail, the herd raced at giant,
opponent 1st turn: giant moves towards herd then is hand of gorked twice into it (once with irresistible force), beats them in combat, runs them down, killing my general (and with it all my ambushers -I was attemptign ambushing horde army).

Basically unruly caused a turn 1 massacare :(

Ya, I found in my recent games with my list I run my shamans outside the unit, with correct positioning they can still support while avoiding the issues with herds.

Daftgor remind me, does hand of gork allow you a charge reaction? If so flee...

I played against an empire list yesterday with the pope-mobile and pulled out a draw. The guy was dumbfounded when he charged with his knights and 4 of my units fleed. A 2 units of hounds, a unit of centigor. He then caught a chariot into his units of vanilla knights that killed them off. And a herd in the flank... I'm not gonna go into the herd in the flank garbage, apparently the herd in the flank couldn't win combat once to increase my frontage to 5 wide, and more so couldn't kill a single knight... Stupid armor saves... And then My can-opener minotaurs charged into the combat... and wiffed... and caused more Combat res against me than for me... meh. I'm happy to have gotten a draw. The guy landed a rocket on my 16 beast bestigor herd second turn and all but wiped them out to 4 bestigors and my general. In hind sight I should have been more aggressive with my bestigors and surged forward with SoD to get them into combat.

A Herdstone, manned by a great bray shaman and guarded by bestigor with killing blow that makes all units near it stubborn, or frenzied, or have hatred, or shoots lighting bolts, or makes all magic missles miscast on any double, or causes all warmachines to roll on the misfire chart. . .

T5 Dragon Ogres

Superspawn that cause terror, regenerate, move 3d6, and have killing blow

Chaos Ogre and Minotaur hero options

Gorthor las Ld10 and makes all chariots move +d6 inches once a game

Morghur is a Lvl4 caster that knows all spells from Death, Shadow, & Beast lores and has Ld10, gains +d3 dispel/power dice, and causes all units (friend or foe) to be subject to stupidity

A chaos hound special character with 3 - no make that 5 - heads

Devastating Mind Control




And last, but not least. . .

Cheaper Shaggoth. Oh, and they should shoot laser beams from their eyes. . .