OK I have two years under my belt now, but sometimes I find myself struggling with even the most basic concepts.

I'd appreciate any help with this scenario:

5 spider riders (US10) are charged by 3 fear causing Cold One Knights (US 6). The desired reaction of the spiders is to flee.

Do they test for fear, or do they automatically flee?

The rulebook: "A unit must take a fear test if charged by a fear-causing enemy". Then it says "... a unit must take a test to see if it can overcome that fear and take the charge."

The low leadership spiders will inevitably fail the fear check. So which is it?

Do they get to flee, or do they take the test - fail - and are compelled to hold and hit on 6's? (given they are higher US)

Thanks for any help,

H

They take a Ld check, if they pass they flee, if they fail they hold.

That doesn't seem right. I thought there was some qualifiers about wishing to have specific charge reactions (don't have my book with me).

Its worded poorly I agree, but I think its eventually clear that fear;

-causes you to flee if you fail and are outnumbered by fear causers
-causes you to hit on 6s in the first round if you fail but are not outnumbered

If you pass, you react as normal, making a flee reaction paired with failed/not outnumbered result pointless, as you will be fleeing or wiped out if caught.

The wording of 'take the charge' and 'fight on as normal' are key here. One does not do either if you declared a flee reaction.

Nowhere does it say that.

Well I am relieved that I am not the only one this is not crystal clear for. :)

If I read you correctly Talonz, you are basically asserting that a fear test is more like a "test to hold".

That appears the most intuitive, except for that bit about "A unit must take a fear test if it is faced by one of the following situations:" It would be much better if they just said "if the unit chooses to hold it must make a fear test".

I have been playing it the other way for a few games (where I am forced to hold after failing that leadership check), and it has not been kind to my O&G light units.

H

Yes it does. Page 50 under the Fear rule.

Charged by Fear causing enemies. If your Us is equal or higher you declare a reaction. He chooses flee. Then he tests.

If he passes he may continue as normal i.e. he flees.

If he fails he is petrified with fear and so is charged and cna only hit on a 6.

IIRC one of the problems is the sequence of events.

1) Charge is declared
2) Charge reaction is declared.
3) BEFORE anyone moves test for fear
4) Resolve charge reactions /fear induced reactions

Correct.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...-02_Edition.pdf

pg 4 second psychology question says that you declare all charges and then charge reactions. Then measure to see if in range, then if they are test. As the test may affect reactions.

So how would you play it? :)

H

I would never play it that the unit does the opposite of what you tell it due to a failed fear test. Nowhere is that indicated in the BRB, while Overmind's citation to the FAQ is equivocal and non-contextual.

More than that, such an interpretation is wide open for abuse:

if a low leadership unit held instead of fleeing when failing a fear test in which it declared flee as its charge reaction, what then prevents a wise general from asserting control by declaring the opposite of his intended reaction? For example, my LD5 Goblins get charged by a fear-causing unit, and I really would like them to hold up the charger; since I'll probably fail the leadership check, I declare a flee reaction and, according to Overmind, my Goblins hold in all likelihood. Thus, I've gamed the system by declaring the opposite of my intent, effectively making my Goblin an LD9 unit instead of an LD5.

The inference that a unit does the opposite of what you tell it when failing a fear test is very tenuous. The rule (BRB 50) is not particularly well written in terms of sequence, but it is clear that only one thing happens with an outnumbered unit that fails a fear test and is charged: it runs away as fast as it can. Making a baroque set of assumptions on the poor wording opens up a loophole in the system which is in clear violation of authorial intent, as no game designer intentionally writes loopholes into his or her system.

Please don't take this as a personal attack, Overmind, as it is not, and in fact your answer is reasonable as far as it goes, but your evidence is very thin and your solution actually causes many more problems than it solves.

Cheers

There is no such effect. The only changed reaction is that of stand (&shoot) to flee. This is redundant if the unit has already chose to flee. Its therefore pointless to test if the unit is fleeing, as it will have no effect, although technically correct.

There is no change in reactions to hold.

That would be wishful thinking, fear causing troops do not need an unnecesary increase in power.

If it just not fear but terror it has an effect, since if you rally you have already done a terror test. :)

Having had a closer look, there is actually no problem, either with sequence in the fear rule on page 50 of the BRB, or concerning the charge reaction; as follows:

"If a Fear-causing enemy unit declares a charge against it, a unit must take a test to see if it can overcome that fear and take the charge."

Fleeing is not taking the charge, holding is: "A unit can stand fast and receive the charge," (BRB 19). So Fleeing units do not need to test.

Further, regarding sequence, "First declare the unit's intended charge reaction, then test as soon as the Fear-causing unit is determined to be within charge range," (BRB 50). Given that fleeing units are unlikely to be in charge range, as the flee distance will cause the charge to fail, the Fear test never occurs.

Since fleeing units are not attempting to "take the charge," and since they are unlikely to be within range of it, it is unnecessary for them to test for Fear, since they must fulfill both conditions in order to do so; fleeing units flee, outnumbered or not, charged by a Fear-causing enemy or not.

Cheers

*shrug* I'm bad at rules lawerying(I don't ahve a better word for this... non negative tone).... even worse that I thought it seems.

OKay so feeling units may flee regardless.... okay. I suppose I can accept that... in fact I play DE a lot so this is probably helpful.

They tecnically still have to test if the charge is in range... it just apparently does nothing. That was clarified in the FAQ. I hope... otherwise I'm hopeless.

Though why would stand and shoot change? I see no reason for that to be affected. If they aren't outnumbered they'd still shoot. Just hit only on 6's in the following close combat.

I'm begining to see the OP's issue here...

And it is hardly wishful thinking if a whole one unit in my army of choice causes fear is it?

Hey Overmind, no worries!

Here's the thing, it's much better to bring it up here than not to bring it up; I mean, who wants to solve this kind of thing at the table? We solve it here together and we all become better players because of it.

Cheers.

Ok, reread it.

You test for fear no matter what, but it makes no difference if you've fled. The consequence of failing only comes into play in the close combat phase.

I also see absolutely nothing that would change a stand and shoot to a hold reaction. It's very specific on reactions being changed to 'flee' when chargers outnumber, and you have to look for meaning to find an interpretation that might force a change of reaction when the chargers don't outnumber.

The only consequence of failing the test is that you hit on 6's in close combat.

They don't have to check if they choose to flee.

1)You only check for fear/terror if found to be in charge range (no forcing units off the board with terror/fear charges from your own deployment).
2)Fleeing units never take psych tests. (pg48, 7th para.)

I was looking for something that said that. :o

Thanks. Saves tiem on rolling useless dice.

Also, remember as a general rule, not doing any "useless" dice rolling is officially sanctioned by GW. For example "technically" a character with a multi-wound weapon has to roll the D3/D6 wounds every time, but there's no point in doing so vs 1W infantry so it isn't done.

To be fair, if you have fled from the charge and are still in range, you're dead anyway so taking that fear test is a bit moot :P